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I find it it interesting that you seem to think it is adequate for you to judge these things 'regardless of German law'. This is a democratically legitimized la

by isquare 13y ago

I find it it interesting that you seem to think it is adequate for you to judge these things 'regardless of German law'. This is a democratically legitimized law that is backed by the vast majority of citizens and has been found to be conforming to the constitution by the Bundesverfassungsgericht, the remarkably potically independent Supreme Court. Just as the US doesn't welcome foreign commentary on laws like 'stand your ground' or 'National Security Letters', other democratic souvereign countries have the right to give themselves laws that conform with the opinions or the majority of its citizens. Here is the rationale: Germany provides high quality free public education to everyone. That education is obligatory for children under 15 and it is neglect of parents to deny their children their right to profit from this education. I think this is a good thing and so does the vast majority of German citizens. You don't have to agree.

hga 13y ago
And would not everything you've said be true of, say, this bit of legislation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933 with the Reichsrat (which I'll admit I first heard of today) substituting for the Bundesverfassungsgericht? Really, now, I think you don't understand our concepts of e.g. natural law (e.g. the right to effective self-defense), and that some things, no matter how consecrated by much beloved process, can nonetheless be utterly illegitimate.
icebraining 13y ago
other democratic souvereign countries have the right to give themselves laws that conform with the opinions or the majority of its citizens Who has denied that? Nobody. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't criticize what we find wrong.
russellsprouts 13y ago
Part of the US system is protection from tyranny of the majority. Prop 8 in California banned gay marriage. It was passed by a 52% majority of the people, but struck down in court. That said, I think that everyone should attend a school. Even (especially) if you don't agree with the curriculum, it's best to let children learn it. It's better to disagree with something you know rather than something you don't know. Homeschooling is much more work than sending a child to public school. For example, my youngest sister had a bad infection for several months during winter and spring that affected her mood causing her to have trouble in school. She attended a traditional public school for several months, but the atmosphere was not working. She transfered to a different public school in our district that only meets 4 times a week, and focuses on the core classes, but that still didn't work. In the end, my family pulled her out of school for the remaining three months and taught her at home. She able to get ahead, and enrolled in a program for children that had various issues with a traditional school. The program starts in 7th grade (~13yo) with 8th grade curriculum, then continues in 8th grade, reviewing the 8th grade curriculum for another year, so that they are prepared for high school. Despite failing most classes in 6th grade, she received straight A's in this program with 8th grade work, and is now a year ahead in math. Having home-school as an option gives an incentive for schools to improve, and allows people the flexibility to make the best choices for schooling their children. Some may abuse that, but I think it should be offered. For reference, for high-school aged students, these are the options in my area: - Traditional high school (5 days/wk, with Math/Science/Language/History, and electives - Art, Music, etc). You can take advanced classes, such as AP for college credit. - Public Charter School (4 days/wk - no Wednesday - Math/Science/Language/History only. Must submit proof of doing art/PE/etc independently) - Non-traditional high school (1 day required, teachers available during the rest of the week - requires much work at home) - Home-School link (1 day w/ teachers to coordinate lessons, work done at home.) - "Running-Start" - attend community college classes for free, earn both high school and college credit. - Private school (religious - don't know any details) - Full Home-school (still required to pass some state exams, must get GED to count as high school). Additionally, sports and music programs were offered only at the traditional high schools, but students living in the district attending any of these options, including private school, could participate. I think all of these are valid options, and I knew people in all of these programs that also participated in other activities, like sports. I think that traditional high school, or the more focused charter school are the best options for most, but not for everyone. Most of the neglectful parents, I would think, sent their children to public school. They certainly would not take the time to teach their children on their own, or pay to send them to private school. They wouldn't apply to enter them in to another one of the programs. The worst case scenario is an incompetent parent that still insists on home-schooling. I can live with parents that have objections to the curriculum pulling their students out. Of course, I know the German school system is much different than the US system. In the US, however, I think that home school needs to be an option.
- isquare 13y ago
  Thank you for the informative reply! I just wanted to add a few points I missed in my earlier post: * there are schools run by private initiatives (usually non-for profits) that provide different atmosphere and focus For instance, Montessori schools focus more on personal creativity. There is regulation in place though to guarantee that every school teaches a the basic curriculum independent of the individual world view of the people who run it. * Many schools are morning schools from 8am-1pm. This means that parents do have opportunity to set priorities and provide personal education in addition to the school offering. However, they cannot take away from the standard curriculum.

by isquare 13y ago

hga 13y ago

And would not everything you've said be true of, say, this bit of legislation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933 with the Reichsrat (which I'll admit I first heard of today) substituting for the Bundesverfassungsgericht? Really, now, I think you don't understand our concepts of e.g. natural law (e.g. the right to effective self-defense), and that some things, no matter how consecrated by much beloved process, can nonetheless be utterly illegitimate.

icebraining 13y ago

other democratic souvereign countries have the right to give themselves laws that conform with the opinions or the majority of its citizens Who has denied that? Nobody. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't criticize what we find wrong.

russellsprouts 13y ago

Part of the US system is protection from tyranny of the majority. Prop 8 in California banned gay marriage. It was passed by a 52% majority of the people, but struck down in court. That said, I think that everyone should attend a school. Even (especially) if you don't agree with the curriculum, it's best to let children learn it. It's better to disagree with something you know rather than something you don't know. Homeschooling is much more work than sending a child to public school. For example, my youngest sister had a bad infection for several months during winter and spring that affected her mood causing her to have trouble in school. She attended a traditional public school for several months, but the atmosphere was not working. She transfered to a different public school in our district that only meets 4 times a week, and focuses on the core classes, but that still didn't work. In the end, my family pulled her out of school for the remaining three months and taught her at home. She able to get ahead, and enrolled in a program for children that had various issues with a traditional school. The program starts in 7th grade (~13yo) with 8th grade curriculum, then continues in 8th grade, reviewing the 8th grade curriculum for another year, so that they are prepared for high school. Despite failing most classes in 6th grade, she received straight A's in this program with 8th grade work, and is now a year ahead in math. Having home-school as an option gives an incentive for schools to improve, and allows people the flexibility to make the best choices for schooling their children. Some may abuse that, but I think it should be offered. For reference, for high-school aged students, these are the options in my area: - Traditional high school (5 days/wk, with Math/Science/Language/History, and electives - Art, Music, etc). You can take advanced classes, such as AP for college credit. - Public Charter School (4 days/wk - no Wednesday - Math/Science/Language/History only. Must submit proof of doing art/PE/etc independently) - Non-traditional high school (1 day required, teachers available during the rest of the week - requires much work at home) - Home-School link (1 day w/ teachers to coordinate lessons, work done at home.) - "Running-Start" - attend community college classes for free, earn both high school and college credit. - Private school (religious - don't know any details) - Full Home-school (still required to pass some state exams, must get GED to count as high school). Additionally, sports and music programs were offered only at the traditional high schools, but students living in the district attending any of these options, including private school, could participate. I think all of these are valid options, and I knew people in all of these programs that also participated in other activities, like sports. I think that traditional high school, or the more focused charter school are the best options for most, but not for everyone. Most of the neglectful parents, I would think, sent their children to public school. They certainly would not take the time to teach their children on their own, or pay to send them to private school. They wouldn't apply to enter them in to another one of the programs. The worst case scenario is an incompetent parent that still insists on home-schooling. I can live with parents that have objections to the curriculum pulling their students out. Of course, I know the German school system is much different than the US system. In the US, however, I think that home school needs to be an option.

isquare 13y ago
Thank you for the informative reply! I just wanted to add a few points I missed in my earlier post: * there are schools run by private initiatives (usually non-for profits) that provide different atmosphere and focus For instance, Montessori schools focus more on personal creativity. There is regulation in place though to guarantee that every school teaches a the basic curriculum independent of the individual world view of the people who run it. * Many schools are morning schools from 8am-1pm. This means that parents do have opportunity to set priorities and provide personal education in addition to the school offering. However, they cannot take away from the standard curriculum.