4 ms·

"Authorities even took the children’s passports, making it impossible for the family to escape ... " Now that's low. How is that even legal?

barry-cotter 13y ago
Passports are state property, they don't belong to you. Besides, they're the state's children, they're just letting the biological parents mind them. Should they be found deficient, better parents can be found.
- rickjames28 13y ago
  What do you mean "they're the state's children"?
  - gallamine 13y ago
    I think he's being sarcastic.
  - CapitalistCartr 13y ago
    He's being sarcastic; suggesting an Orwellian view.
  - barry-cotter 13y ago
    That was hyperbole, sarcasm or cynicism depending on how charitable one feels like being. There's no Schnelling point between children are their parents and children are the state's. The trend is definitely towards the state. That's the entire point of things like Child Protection Services, declaring people unfit parents, etc. But what I said was bitter libertarian snark influenced by reading homeschooling/unschooling stuff and the tiny children's rights movement.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  I am Not a Fan(tm) of homeschooling and support bans of it, but forbidding them to leave is going to far. In Plato's dialog Crito, Socrates lays out his justification for respecting the rule of law. One of his arguments in to Crito is that, while not under arrest, any Athenian remains free to leave Athens with his family and posessions. Personally, I think Plato was sort of a hack (Plato has Crito offer only token objections) and disagree with Socrates decision to stay... BUT if the rule of law is to be respected, it seems clear to me that the freedom to opt-out must remain intact. If Germany wants to prevent these people from leaving then they should properly detain them. If they find themselves unwilling or unable to do that, then these people should be free to leave the country.
  - glurgh 13y ago
    There are also German laws that place restrictions on whether and when your retail business can be open on Sundays. Or what you can say about the Nazis. Plenty of US laws are heatedly discussed here as well, often enough. Fact is, it's not likely you can arrive at sensible conclusions about them without context or on the basis of some advocacy piece or, for that matter, Plato.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      The point of the reference to Plato is that in his writings Socrates establishes a bare minimum that we should expect from a legal system if we are to respect it. Being able to leave isn't sufficient, however it is necessary. When states start revoking passports to restrict the movement of people under their jurisdiction, they fall short of something that we should respect.
      - glurgh 13y ago
        No, I got it and I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with the point itself, per se. The basis of the point, though, is one report from an advocacy source - and here we are talking about the moral philosophy of law and statism and the Prussians and Plato. Meanwhile nobody's actually found and referenced another report of any kind. Maybe from German media. Maybe a publicly available court document. Anything. This sort of anti-pattern makes me think that stuff like this should be mercilessly flagged off the site. If you're particularly keen on talking about it, write it up, as soberly as you can, put up some links and post that. Linking the advocacy post itself is near-guaranteed to generate almost exclusively heat at the expense of light.
        jlgreco 13y ago
        Well if this straight up didn't happen, then there is nothing here to discuss.
        glurgh 13y ago
- HarryHirsch 13y ago
  What if they were the state's children? What I'm saying here is that often one encounters the opinion that children are their parents' property, that they can do with them as they well please, and that isn't true either. There are such things as abusive parents, and there are such things as crazy cults. One notices that there was that other German couple, whose name eludes me, who cited religious motives for homeschooling. That is never a good sign. I'm a practicing Catholic, and if a German gives that reason for homeschooling they are using the Lord's name in vain. Public opinion in Germany (and in France) is that society has a duty to provide some oversight, and that that is provided by schools. By the way, public education in Germany is generally decent. All these arguments aside, there is also the child's right to a decent education, and the parents have no right at all to deprive the child of that.
glurgh 13y ago
It's German law? Every developed democracy probably has a few that you might find disagreeable or outright immoral. If you're going to get righteously indignant about every single one of them you probably won't have much time to do anything else.
- a_bonobo 13y ago
  I think this is a case where the OP's link left out information - I'd wager the kids' parents have said before this happened that they'd take the kids to another country like the US. Taking their passports prevents this kind of fleeing.
  - glurgh 13y ago
    OP's link is a link to a US homeschooling advocacy organization. So you're right, the problem is the link itself - not a particularly constructive thing to post on HN.
yk 13y ago
Well, it escalated for a long time. The law in Germany is, that children have to go to some school public or private. In this case, the family refused to send the children to any school, and it escalated to a point where the government appointed a guardian for the children. Then the family left Germany and apparently returned now. So as far as I understand the legal argument: the parents have no longer the right to take the children out of Germany and therefore the passports were taken to prevent this.
derwagner 13y ago
The right to determine where children do or do not travel lies with their legal guardians, which in this case are no longer their parents. The actual legal guardian is in possession of the passports.

barry-cotter 13y ago

Passports are state property, they don't belong to you. Besides, they're the state's children, they're just letting the biological parents mind them. Should they be found deficient, better parents can be found.

rickjames28 13y ago
What do you mean "they're the state's children"?
- gallamine 13y ago
  I think he's being sarcastic.
- CapitalistCartr 13y ago
  He's being sarcastic; suggesting an Orwellian view.
- barry-cotter 13y ago
  That was hyperbole, sarcasm or cynicism depending on how charitable one feels like being. There's no Schnelling point between children are their parents and children are the state's. The trend is definitely towards the state. That's the entire point of things like Child Protection Services, declaring people unfit parents, etc. But what I said was bitter libertarian snark influenced by reading homeschooling/unschooling stuff and the tiny children's rights movement.
jlgreco 13y ago
I am Not a Fan(tm) of homeschooling and support bans of it, but forbidding them to leave is going to far. In Plato's dialog Crito, Socrates lays out his justification for respecting the rule of law. One of his arguments in to Crito is that, while not under arrest, any Athenian remains free to leave Athens with his family and posessions. Personally, I think Plato was sort of a hack (Plato has Crito offer only token objections) and disagree with Socrates decision to stay... BUT if the rule of law is to be respected, it seems clear to me that the freedom to opt-out must remain intact. If Germany wants to prevent these people from leaving then they should properly detain them. If they find themselves unwilling or unable to do that, then these people should be free to leave the country.
- glurgh 13y ago
  There are also German laws that place restrictions on whether and when your retail business can be open on Sundays. Or what you can say about the Nazis. Plenty of US laws are heatedly discussed here as well, often enough. Fact is, it's not likely you can arrive at sensible conclusions about them without context or on the basis of some advocacy piece or, for that matter, Plato.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    The point of the reference to Plato is that in his writings Socrates establishes a bare minimum that we should expect from a legal system if we are to respect it. Being able to leave isn't sufficient, however it is necessary. When states start revoking passports to restrict the movement of people under their jurisdiction, they fall short of something that we should respect.
    - glurgh 13y ago
      No, I got it and I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with the point itself, per se. The basis of the point, though, is one report from an advocacy source - and here we are talking about the moral philosophy of law and statism and the Prussians and Plato. Meanwhile nobody's actually found and referenced another report of any kind. Maybe from German media. Maybe a publicly available court document. Anything. This sort of anti-pattern makes me think that stuff like this should be mercilessly flagged off the site. If you're particularly keen on talking about it, write it up, as soberly as you can, put up some links and post that. Linking the advocacy post itself is near-guaranteed to generate almost exclusively heat at the expense of light.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        Well if this straight up didn't happen, then there is nothing here to discuss.
        glurgh 13y ago
HarryHirsch 13y ago
What if they were the state's children? What I'm saying here is that often one encounters the opinion that children are their parents' property, that they can do with them as they well please, and that isn't true either. There are such things as abusive parents, and there are such things as crazy cults. One notices that there was that other German couple, whose name eludes me, who cited religious motives for homeschooling. That is never a good sign. I'm a practicing Catholic, and if a German gives that reason for homeschooling they are using the Lord's name in vain. Public opinion in Germany (and in France) is that society has a duty to provide some oversight, and that that is provided by schools. By the way, public education in Germany is generally decent. All these arguments aside, there is also the child's right to a decent education, and the parents have no right at all to deprive the child of that.

glurgh 13y ago

It's German law? Every developed democracy probably has a few that you might find disagreeable or outright immoral. If you're going to get righteously indignant about every single one of them you probably won't have much time to do anything else.

a_bonobo 13y ago
I think this is a case where the OP's link left out information - I'd wager the kids' parents have said before this happened that they'd take the kids to another country like the US. Taking their passports prevents this kind of fleeing.
- glurgh 13y ago
  OP's link is a link to a US homeschooling advocacy organization. So you're right, the problem is the link itself - not a particularly constructive thing to post on HN.

yk 13y ago

Well, it escalated for a long time. The law in Germany is, that children have to go to some school public or private. In this case, the family refused to send the children to any school, and it escalated to a point where the government appointed a guardian for the children. Then the family left Germany and apparently returned now. So as far as I understand the legal argument: the parents have no longer the right to take the children out of Germany and therefore the passports were taken to prevent this.

derwagner 13y ago

The right to determine where children do or do not travel lies with their legal guardians, which in this case are no longer their parents. The actual legal guardian is in possession of the passports.