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Contacting congressfolks is useless. I don't know where you guys get this idea that it actually works, but if you simply look at incentives (not expectations of

by snitko 13y ago

Contacting congressfolks is useless. I don't know where you guys get this idea that it actually works, but if you simply look at incentives (not expectations of how it's supposed to be) government officials have absolutely no incentives to change their policies even if a large enough group of people demands it. Whenever something is inconvenient to a government, this group of people can simply be ignored, because nothing else would follow. No uprisings, no media coverage, and, most importantly, no reduction in financing (taxation) - nothing. The people in government know this very well, but, of course, they are interested in perpetuating this myth, because it adds legitimacy to them.

DannyBee 13y ago
"I don't know where you guys get this idea that it actually works" From doing it. From watching how DC works, from working next to DC lobbyists and politicians for many years, and watching people be effective and get things done in DC for many many years. I'm not sure why you think it doesn't work. Have you actually done it? They care tremendously what their constituents believe, contrary to popular belief. They get daily morning briefings on their constituents views on issues, etc.
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  >>From doing it. From watching how DC works, from working next to DC lobbyists and politicians for many years, and watching people be effective and get things done in DC for many many years. So basically, anecdotal evidence. Got it. This issue has been discussed on HN before, and we had overwhelming response from people who actually worked for Congresspeople that the vast majority of letters and calls from constituents get either ignored, or given canned responses. This fits my anecdotal experiences with politicians in general as well - for the most part, the politician is paid for by private interests and lobby groups.
  - nostrademons 13y ago
    What I've heard from friends who've worked in congressmans' offices is that the staffers will take all incoming communications - phone calls, letters, e-mails - and then divide them up into either "PRO" or "CON" piles for each bill that's up for a vote. They will then provide a report to the congressman, who combines the data of constituent feelings with his own personal beliefs, political compromises he brokers, and information from lobbyists in deciding how to vote. I've heard the rule of thumb is that for each person who writes in, roughly 10 other constituents feel the same way. So yes, on an individual level, your vote is worthless. However, in the aggregate, constituent feedback counts for a lot, possibly the biggest single input. And so once you accept that you as an individual are insignificant in the grand scheme of themes, you can actually accomplish a lot by minimizing the personal effort you expend on writing your congressperson and instead getting lots of other people to vote the same way you do. This suggests an interesting hack. Create a really simple mobile app that lets you subscribe to all upcoming legislation on issues you care about. It'd be structured like a news app or RSS reader, where you can flick it open whenever you have a spare moment and read the latest upcoming issues. And then let you easily indicate your position - perhaps swiping right means "Aye" and swiping left means "Nay". A swipe automatically sends a canned form letter to your congressman indicating your support or opposition for the legislation. Basically, you're leveraging technology to enable direct democracy. Create a direct information line between constituent and congressperson, where the constituents have all the information available to them that congresspeople do, and can vote just as easily.
    - AndrewKemendo 13y ago
      Kind of like Capitol Bells? http://capitolbells.com/#about-the-app http://capitolbells.com/#about-the-app I recall the creator talking about this at length on reddit or somesuch in recent months. Also Direct Democracy is a nightmare. See: California. Arnold Schwarzenegger outlines why his attempt at making most of his major issues ballot initiatives in his first term was a disaster in his book Total Recall.
      - nostrademons 13y ago
        Heh, pretty cool. Unfortunately it's not available for Android yet. But it seems to be basically exactly what I had in mind.
  - DannyBee 13y ago
    "This issue has been discussed on HN before, and we had overwhelming response from people who actually worked for Congresspeople that the vast majority of letters and calls from constituents get either ignored, or given canned responses." [citation needed] I highly doubt this is what was said, because it's simply not true. I certainly don't remember it being said either. Certainly, if that was the the "overwhelming response", you should have no trouble providing links. If you do, i'm happy to admit I was wrong. As far I know, having talked directly to legislative assistants of congressman, and chiefs of staff of senators, is that they are a huge input into how congressmen and senators vote.
    - enraged_camel 13y ago
      Since you said you are willing to admit you are wrong, I took the time to search and find it. Here you go: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5876185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5876185 Excerpt from first reply: "ETA: I've also typically seen that regardless of the amount of pressure applied by the public for one side of an issue, nearly every politician will simply vote the party line anyways. They know where their bread is buttered, and won't go against party leadership. I've watched legislators look over at a senior party member and be signalled which way to vote when their turn comes up. I don't think anything I've done or said to my representatives has had the slightest impact on their opinion or voting record. That's just how the game is played." Excerpt from second reply: "IME: email is worthless. canned letters / faxes go in the garbage. A polite phone call may accomplish something. Better yet if you donated or voted for that politician. Even better if you phone banked." [followed by an explanation of what works, i.e. money] Excerpt from third comment: "I was an intern for a congressman. My job was to answer and return constituent emails and calls. We took the feedback, searched for the proper prewritten form letter, printed it out and sent it back with a stamp of the congressman's signature. He never got a single bit of the feedback himself." Fourth comment mentions that anti-SOPA call-ins seemed to have been successful, but they are forgetting the billions of dollars of corporate money that went into protesting SOPA. Again, it was about money.
pampa 13y ago
> no reduction in financing (taxation) If you look at the GDP to national debt map on wikipedia you will notice, that most (if not all) first world countries, the beacons of human rights and democracy, owe more that they can produce in the foreseeable future. It is not the tax money they are spending.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > If you look at the GDP to national debt map on wikipedia you will notice, that most (if not all) first world countries, the beacons of human rights and democracy, owe more that they can produce in the foreseeable future. The highest debt:GDP ratio on the list under either measure is Japan's under the CIA measure, at a little over 200% of GDP. That's not more than it can produce in the forseeable future (its a little more than it produces in two years.) It may be more than they can are likely to pay off in the forseeable future, but then, that's a completely different story. > It is not the tax money they are spending. That's not a question that is addressed by debt:GDP ratio, its a question that is addressed by deficit:budget ratio, which is a very different beast.
  - pampa 13y ago
    Well, there is a chart for that on wikipedia too, and it doesn't look good either. And I'm not talking about Japan. There was a country just a little over 20 years ago that was in debt up to its neck and was trying to do global surveillance and project global power. Half of the world was screwed when it fell, and not everybody in the eastern block did recover yet. God help us all if this happens to the usa.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > Well, there is a chart for that on wikipedia too, and it doesn't look good either. After you misrepresented the last one without actually linking to it, I'm not really inclined to expend the effort to verify your characterization of this one. > There was a country just a little over 20 years ago that was in debt up to its neck and was trying to do global surveillance and project global power. AFAICT, the Soviet Union, just before it fell, had an estimated $65-$100 billion in foreign debt with a GDP on the order of $2.5 trillion -- it wasn't really "in debt up to its neck".
lelandbatey 13y ago
You're semi right, in that many parts of government do not care about what the public thinks; however, congressmen are not in this group. They are totally beholden to the people in their district, as that is their source of power. The people who live in a district have that districts congressman by the nose, and they should act like it.
- snitko 13y ago
  Well, let's see. Do people have the power to stop paying a congressman his salary immediately or do they have to wait for the next election and hope another guy wins? Or maybe they can take a congressman to court for not keeping his promises? What incentives does a congressman have to truly react to those who elected him and do something about the issues they have?

by snitko 13y ago

DannyBee 13y ago

"I don't know where you guys get this idea that it actually works" From doing it. From watching how DC works, from working next to DC lobbyists and politicians for many years, and watching people be effective and get things done in DC for many many years. I'm not sure why you think it doesn't work. Have you actually done it? They care tremendously what their constituents believe, contrary to popular belief. They get daily morning briefings on their constituents views on issues, etc.

enraged_camel 13y ago
>>From doing it. From watching how DC works, from working next to DC lobbyists and politicians for many years, and watching people be effective and get things done in DC for many many years. So basically, anecdotal evidence. Got it. This issue has been discussed on HN before, and we had overwhelming response from people who actually worked for Congresspeople that the vast majority of letters and calls from constituents get either ignored, or given canned responses. This fits my anecdotal experiences with politicians in general as well - for the most part, the politician is paid for by private interests and lobby groups.
- nostrademons 13y ago
  What I've heard from friends who've worked in congressmans' offices is that the staffers will take all incoming communications - phone calls, letters, e-mails - and then divide them up into either "PRO" or "CON" piles for each bill that's up for a vote. They will then provide a report to the congressman, who combines the data of constituent feelings with his own personal beliefs, political compromises he brokers, and information from lobbyists in deciding how to vote. I've heard the rule of thumb is that for each person who writes in, roughly 10 other constituents feel the same way. So yes, on an individual level, your vote is worthless. However, in the aggregate, constituent feedback counts for a lot, possibly the biggest single input. And so once you accept that you as an individual are insignificant in the grand scheme of themes, you can actually accomplish a lot by minimizing the personal effort you expend on writing your congressperson and instead getting lots of other people to vote the same way you do. This suggests an interesting hack. Create a really simple mobile app that lets you subscribe to all upcoming legislation on issues you care about. It'd be structured like a news app or RSS reader, where you can flick it open whenever you have a spare moment and read the latest upcoming issues. And then let you easily indicate your position - perhaps swiping right means "Aye" and swiping left means "Nay". A swipe automatically sends a canned form letter to your congressman indicating your support or opposition for the legislation. Basically, you're leveraging technology to enable direct democracy. Create a direct information line between constituent and congressperson, where the constituents have all the information available to them that congresspeople do, and can vote just as easily.
  - AndrewKemendo 13y ago
    Kind of like Capitol Bells? http://capitolbells.com/#about-the-app http://capitolbells.com/#about-the-app I recall the creator talking about this at length on reddit or somesuch in recent months. Also Direct Democracy is a nightmare. See: California. Arnold Schwarzenegger outlines why his attempt at making most of his major issues ballot initiatives in his first term was a disaster in his book Total Recall.
    - nostrademons 13y ago
      Heh, pretty cool. Unfortunately it's not available for Android yet. But it seems to be basically exactly what I had in mind.
- DannyBee 13y ago
  "This issue has been discussed on HN before, and we had overwhelming response from people who actually worked for Congresspeople that the vast majority of letters and calls from constituents get either ignored, or given canned responses." [citation needed] I highly doubt this is what was said, because it's simply not true. I certainly don't remember it being said either. Certainly, if that was the the "overwhelming response", you should have no trouble providing links. If you do, i'm happy to admit I was wrong. As far I know, having talked directly to legislative assistants of congressman, and chiefs of staff of senators, is that they are a huge input into how congressmen and senators vote.
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    Since you said you are willing to admit you are wrong, I took the time to search and find it. Here you go: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5876185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5876185 Excerpt from first reply: "ETA: I've also typically seen that regardless of the amount of pressure applied by the public for one side of an issue, nearly every politician will simply vote the party line anyways. They know where their bread is buttered, and won't go against party leadership. I've watched legislators look over at a senior party member and be signalled which way to vote when their turn comes up. I don't think anything I've done or said to my representatives has had the slightest impact on their opinion or voting record. That's just how the game is played." Excerpt from second reply: "IME: email is worthless. canned letters / faxes go in the garbage. A polite phone call may accomplish something. Better yet if you donated or voted for that politician. Even better if you phone banked." [followed by an explanation of what works, i.e. money] Excerpt from third comment: "I was an intern for a congressman. My job was to answer and return constituent emails and calls. We took the feedback, searched for the proper prewritten form letter, printed it out and sent it back with a stamp of the congressman's signature. He never got a single bit of the feedback himself." Fourth comment mentions that anti-SOPA call-ins seemed to have been successful, but they are forgetting the billions of dollars of corporate money that went into protesting SOPA. Again, it was about money.

pampa 13y ago

> no reduction in financing (taxation) If you look at the GDP to national debt map on wikipedia you will notice, that most (if not all) first world countries, the beacons of human rights and democracy, owe more that they can produce in the foreseeable future. It is not the tax money they are spending.

dragonwriter 13y ago
> If you look at the GDP to national debt map on wikipedia you will notice, that most (if not all) first world countries, the beacons of human rights and democracy, owe more that they can produce in the foreseeable future. The highest debt:GDP ratio on the list under either measure is Japan's under the CIA measure, at a little over 200% of GDP. That's not more than it can produce in the forseeable future (its a little more than it produces in two years.) It may be more than they can are likely to pay off in the forseeable future, but then, that's a completely different story. > It is not the tax money they are spending. That's not a question that is addressed by debt:GDP ratio, its a question that is addressed by deficit:budget ratio, which is a very different beast.
- pampa 13y ago
  Well, there is a chart for that on wikipedia too, and it doesn't look good either. And I'm not talking about Japan. There was a country just a little over 20 years ago that was in debt up to its neck and was trying to do global surveillance and project global power. Half of the world was screwed when it fell, and not everybody in the eastern block did recover yet. God help us all if this happens to the usa.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > Well, there is a chart for that on wikipedia too, and it doesn't look good either. After you misrepresented the last one without actually linking to it, I'm not really inclined to expend the effort to verify your characterization of this one. > There was a country just a little over 20 years ago that was in debt up to its neck and was trying to do global surveillance and project global power. AFAICT, the Soviet Union, just before it fell, had an estimated $65-$100 billion in foreign debt with a GDP on the order of $2.5 trillion -- it wasn't really "in debt up to its neck".

lelandbatey 13y ago

You're semi right, in that many parts of government do not care about what the public thinks; however, congressmen are not in this group. They are totally beholden to the people in their district, as that is their source of power. The people who live in a district have that districts congressman by the nose, and they should act like it.

snitko 13y ago
Well, let's see. Do people have the power to stop paying a congressman his salary immediately or do they have to wait for the next election and hope another guy wins? Or maybe they can take a congressman to court for not keeping his promises? What incentives does a congressman have to truly react to those who elected him and do something about the issues they have?