4 ms·

The worst mainstream example of this I know of is PayPal. Their entire business is predicated on steering you away from using your credit or debit card (better

by abalone 13y ago

The worst mainstream example of this I know of is PayPal. Their entire business is predicated on steering you away from using your credit or debit card (better for you) to a direct bank withdrawal (better for them). Bank withdrawals carry a risk of overdraft fees, have fewer consumer protections, and lack the rewards programs and other benefits of cards. But they cost less for PayPal. Merchants don't pay any less though -- it's how PayPal makes money. Each and every time it defaults to bank withdrawals. You have to hit "Change" to select your card, every time. There's no way to change the default to your card. The only reason for this UI is to steer customers away from their best interests.

toupeira 13y ago
I only have my credit card associated with my PayPal account, so I don't even get the option to use a bank withdrawal.
- T-hawk 13y ago
  +1. That's the only way to use PayPal as a consumer. If you're just a buyer and not a seller, there's no advantage to you to tell them about your bank account. They make some noise about a sending limit until you verify with a bank account, but I've never had any transactions run into that. I had my bank account connected to PayPal once, but deleted the association a few years ago. Somewhat surprisingly in the modern world of phantom deletion, there's never been any sign of it reappearing or Paypal trying to use or access it for anything. Each Paypal purchase uses only my credit card with no accidental way to do anything else.
  - r00fus 13y ago
    Consequently PayPal make no shortage of effort to get you to add your bank account. I'm surprised they don't allow people to transfer money to you (and then force you to connect your bank account to get the money).
    - ansible 13y ago
      Every frakkin' time, they have to ask. But whatever, I only use PayPal for donating to charities and other non-critical stuff.
Zelphyr 13y ago
I can confirm PayPal are douchebags in this regard. So much so that I couldn't donate to Lavabit because of it.
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  In hindsight though, this was probably a good thing. You would most likely have been on an NSA database if you had donated to Lavabit.
  - dylangs1030 13y ago
    Politely, I know you think you're helping people by maintaining awareness of the NSA, but a passing mention of Lavabit on a PayPal thread doesn't warrant a a tangent about the NSA and privacy. It seems kind of obsessive. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
- dylangs1030 13y ago
  Can you elaborate on this? Why did the practice of preferring bank withdrawals prevent you from just choosing a card...or paying some other way?
eevee 13y ago
I'm no fan of PayPal, but I interpret this as a reflection of the state of the banking industry rather than scummy behavior on PayPal's part. Cards skim a ton off the top and are generally designed to gouge the merchant (i.e. PayPal) so customers remain blissfully unaware and keep using them; banks aren't making much effort to compete with direct transfers, probably because they get kickbacks from debit card use.
- abalone 13y ago
  That argument would make sense if PayPal charged a lower fee for bank withdrawals. They don't. They "gouge" merchants just the same. It's literally a case of using UI to steer customers towards a method that's worse for customers and no better for merchants.
mbesto 13y ago
GoDaddy and VistaPrint also come to mind.
dangrossman 13y ago
> Their entire business is predicated on steering you away from using your credit or debit card (better for you) to a direct bank withdrawal (better for them). You're being hyperbolic, or don't know what predicated means. This defaulting to bank transfers is a relatively recent thing in their history; they've been profitable for more than 10 years without that. Their fees are also sufficient to make a profit on credit card transactions, so their business would not fail should everyone opt-out of paying by ACH. There are reasons for PayPal to want you to use ACH over a credit card beyond simply increasing profits, too. They're just as much victims of credit card fraud as their merchants. It's the card networks' fault that almost anyone in the world can pick up a Visa/MasterCard card, use it to buy something on eBay, then charge back the payment after they get the item. PayPal's the one getting the chargeback, and they're not exempt from the card networks' requirements on maximum chargeback rates. It's an existential threat to their business, always has been.
- Amadou 13y ago
  This defaulting to bank transfers is a relatively recent thing in their history; I've had a paypal account since before Ebay bought them and they've always used sneaky user interface tricks to push customers into using bank transfers over credit cards. It was the first thing I noticed about them after signing up.
  - Stratoscope 13y ago
    That's right, PayPal has always worked this way. In fact, it's only fairly recently that it let me switch to a credit card without putting up a warning page about all the benefits I'd get by using my checking account instead of a credit card.
- abalone 13y ago
  I think you're wrong on the facts. PayPal has always steered towards bank withdrawals as long as I can remember. Your note on chargebacks supports my point: Paying by card is better for the consumer. PayPal's trick UI steers them away from that.
markdown 13y ago
If you've subscribed to some service via Paypal, try and find a way to unsubscribe and stop payments from within the Paypal interface. You may just end up pulling all you hair out before you find a way to do so.
- kalleboo 13y ago
  * Logged in, "My recent activity", clicked a recent recurring payment * Third line of text on the page: "You can see all of your recurring payments on the [My preapproved payments].". Clicked the link. * Hair intact.
  - processyellow 13y ago
    This assumes your last subscription was in the last 7 days and you know when the money gets withdrawn. Some subscriptions are not monthly, so you end up having to search for a specific subscription you know of to click on to get to the secret My preapproved payments page. Of course, the polite way of handling subscriptions would be having a link to this page in the menu. Sort of like how there are links to all of the other things you can do. Does this feature honestly not seem hidden to you compared to the other things you can do on PayPal?

by abalone 13y ago

toupeira 13y ago

I only have my credit card associated with my PayPal account, so I don't even get the option to use a bank withdrawal.

T-hawk 13y ago
+1. That's the only way to use PayPal as a consumer. If you're just a buyer and not a seller, there's no advantage to you to tell them about your bank account. They make some noise about a sending limit until you verify with a bank account, but I've never had any transactions run into that. I had my bank account connected to PayPal once, but deleted the association a few years ago. Somewhat surprisingly in the modern world of phantom deletion, there's never been any sign of it reappearing or Paypal trying to use or access it for anything. Each Paypal purchase uses only my credit card with no accidental way to do anything else.
- r00fus 13y ago
  Consequently PayPal make no shortage of effort to get you to add your bank account. I'm surprised they don't allow people to transfer money to you (and then force you to connect your bank account to get the money).
  - ansible 13y ago
    Every frakkin' time, they have to ask. But whatever, I only use PayPal for donating to charities and other non-critical stuff.

Zelphyr 13y ago

I can confirm PayPal are douchebags in this regard. So much so that I couldn't donate to Lavabit because of it.

enraged_camel 13y ago
In hindsight though, this was probably a good thing. You would most likely have been on an NSA database if you had donated to Lavabit.
- dylangs1030 13y ago
  Politely, I know you think you're helping people by maintaining awareness of the NSA, but a passing mention of Lavabit on a PayPal thread doesn't warrant a a tangent about the NSA and privacy. It seems kind of obsessive. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
dylangs1030 13y ago
Can you elaborate on this? Why did the practice of preferring bank withdrawals prevent you from just choosing a card...or paying some other way?

eevee 13y ago

I'm no fan of PayPal, but I interpret this as a reflection of the state of the banking industry rather than scummy behavior on PayPal's part. Cards skim a ton off the top and are generally designed to gouge the merchant (i.e. PayPal) so customers remain blissfully unaware and keep using them; banks aren't making much effort to compete with direct transfers, probably because they get kickbacks from debit card use.

abalone 13y ago
That argument would make sense if PayPal charged a lower fee for bank withdrawals. They don't. They "gouge" merchants just the same. It's literally a case of using UI to steer customers towards a method that's worse for customers and no better for merchants.

mbesto 13y ago

GoDaddy and VistaPrint also come to mind.

dangrossman 13y ago

> Their entire business is predicated on steering you away from using your credit or debit card (better for you) to a direct bank withdrawal (better for them). You're being hyperbolic, or don't know what predicated means. This defaulting to bank transfers is a relatively recent thing in their history; they've been profitable for more than 10 years without that. Their fees are also sufficient to make a profit on credit card transactions, so their business would not fail should everyone opt-out of paying by ACH. There are reasons for PayPal to want you to use ACH over a credit card beyond simply increasing profits, too. They're just as much victims of credit card fraud as their merchants. It's the card networks' fault that almost anyone in the world can pick up a Visa/MasterCard card, use it to buy something on eBay, then charge back the payment after they get the item. PayPal's the one getting the chargeback, and they're not exempt from the card networks' requirements on maximum chargeback rates. It's an existential threat to their business, always has been.

Amadou 13y ago
This defaulting to bank transfers is a relatively recent thing in their history; I've had a paypal account since before Ebay bought them and they've always used sneaky user interface tricks to push customers into using bank transfers over credit cards. It was the first thing I noticed about them after signing up.
- Stratoscope 13y ago
  That's right, PayPal has always worked this way. In fact, it's only fairly recently that it let me switch to a credit card without putting up a warning page about all the benefits I'd get by using my checking account instead of a credit card.
abalone 13y ago
I think you're wrong on the facts. PayPal has always steered towards bank withdrawals as long as I can remember. Your note on chargebacks supports my point: Paying by card is better for the consumer. PayPal's trick UI steers them away from that.

markdown 13y ago

If you've subscribed to some service via Paypal, try and find a way to unsubscribe and stop payments from within the Paypal interface. You may just end up pulling all you hair out before you find a way to do so.

kalleboo 13y ago
* Logged in, "My recent activity", clicked a recent recurring payment * Third line of text on the page: "You can see all of your recurring payments on the [My preapproved payments].". Clicked the link. * Hair intact.
- processyellow 13y ago
  This assumes your last subscription was in the last 7 days and you know when the money gets withdrawn. Some subscriptions are not monthly, so you end up having to search for a specific subscription you know of to click on to get to the secret My preapproved payments page. Of course, the polite way of handling subscriptions would be having a link to this page in the menu. Sort of like how there are links to all of the other things you can do. Does this feature honestly not seem hidden to you compared to the other things you can do on PayPal?