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CS 161 – Computer Security – Syllabus and important notes [pdf]
I thought this was a joke, but apparently it isn't.
Summary:
Late to a class? You get an F and need to leave.
Late to section? You get an F and leave. By the way, four sections have been dropped. If you have a schedule conflict, report it by September 2nd, or get an F and need to leave.
Unanticipated absence due to family emergency or medical reasons? Full documentation must be submitted on the same day, or get an F.
Religious absence? Submit it by September 2nd, or get an F.
Cell phone beeps? Get an F and need to leave.
Use any non-medical electronic device at all? Get an F and need to leave.
Don't have a book yet? Pay $50 and also pay out the nose extra to get it overnighted; there's an exam on Monday. Oh, and the second textbook hasn't been published yet. Too poor? Too bad.
Requesting a re-grade? All of your exams will be re-graded.
Need to use the bathroom during a quiz? No.
Need to use the bathroom during an exam? Your test will be taken from you and photographed, and you will be escorted to the restroom.
Suspect someone is looking at your exam sheet? Stand up and report it immediately during the exam or get an F.
- joshAg 13y agoI thought this was a joke, but apparently it isn't. Summary: Late to a class? You get an F and need to leave. Late to section? You get an F and leave. By the way, four sections have been dropped. If you have a schedule conflict, report it by September 2nd, or get an F. Unanticipated absence due to family emergency or medical reasons? Full documentation must be submitted on the same day, or get an F. Religious absence? Submit it by September 2nd, or get an F. Cell phone beeps? Any other electronic device makes a noise? Get an F and need to leave. Use any non-medical electronic device at all? Get an F and need to leave. Don't have a book yet? Pay $50 and also pay out the nose extra to get it overnighted; there's an exam on Monday. Oh, and the second textbook hasn't been published yet. Too poor? Too bad. Requesting a re-grade? All of your exams will be re-graded. Need to use the bathroom during a quiz? No. Need to use the bathroom during an exam? Your test will be taken from you and photographed, and you will be escorted to the restroom. Suspect someone is looking at your exam sheet? Stand up and report it immediately during the exam or get an F.
- khwang 13y agoI graduated from UC Berkeley a year ago, and I remember CS161 being known as one of the easier technical upper divs at Berkeley. Although I never took the course myself, these rules seem like quite a departure from the norm. I wonder if perhaps the professor is trying to scare people into dropping the class?
- Scaevolus 13y agoLooks like budget problems mean they can't support everyone: "There are currently about 170 students. However, given the current TA staffing, we can only support 75-90 students in the class. Because this class is so challenging, I expect that about 2/3rds of currently enrolled students will drop the course. Those who remain will need to commit to being on-time for every class and discussion section, and willing to devote substantial effort to reading and understanding highly technical material (and being examined on it during every single class section)."
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- pkill17 13y agoNot a budget issue; they just couldn't staff enough TA's (not enough students expressed interest in becoming a TA).
- jestinjoy 13y agoIt seems like a Joke
- saidajigumi 13y agoSigh. Because 90s-boom-startup mentality is a really great pedagogical tool on motivated, previously tightly selected students. Or human beings in general. NOT. Also, this bit: "Grading will be _highly competitive_." Meaning: "I could have used powerful team collaboration tools in this classroom, but instead I've pitted these students against each other." Meaning: "I don't actually understand evaluation of performance, I just like bludgeoning people over whom I have power." Meaning: "I was hazed with this kind of crap as a student, I think it put a few hairs on my chest, and so I return the abuse unto you." Listen up, instructor: Berkeley probably has some excellent instructor training resources. You've missed the past half-century, esp. the past fifteen-or-so years, of vast improvements in educational methods. Maybe your security chops are great, but your syllabus says something radically different about your teaching skills.
- Ar-Curunir 13y agolol. I highly doubt that that he was thinking that. You're spouting a lot of nonsense in that post. The consensus here at Berkeley is that this is simply a ploy to get students to drop the class because there isn't enough space for everybody.
- koko775 13y agoSure, but how is degrading people to disgust them out of taking your class any less reprehensible? It's pretty clear the rules are nigh-unenforcable, but the misery it threatens students with is awful and treats students like children and criminals.
- 001sky 13y agoHow is this degrading? Its merely strict.
- hexecute 13y agoI don't know about merely strict. "If you are disabled and require special arrangements for exams, you must contact the instructor with full documentation by 5PM, August 30. The alternate exam will be an oral exam, closed-book, closed-note, cumulative over all class material and will be scheduled at 9AM on Sunday, December 15."
- pkill17 13y agoFor those unfamiliar with our curriculum: CS161 is given as a "choose-two of these required courses" choice in order to complete the CS major. Many students are enrolled out of necessity.
- joshAg 13y agoReally? Wow that's rough! L&S CS, EECS, or both? When I graduated the only requirement was enough units and at least one lab class. btw, what's the other class?
- khwang 13y agoAs far as I know, it's just L&S CS. I graduated with a degree in EECS in May 2012 and we didn't really have any required upper division courses beyond "take X number of units".
- sqrt 13y agoThis is false; you are confusing 161 with 162.
- pkill17 13y agoYou may be the confused one: "Breadth courses choose two from the following" http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/csugrad/ http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/csugrad/ I didn't say it was required, but it's in the "choose-two" allotment of breadths.
- rickdale 13y agoI spent a summer at Berkley coming from as liberal an institution as there is. The biggest difference that really affected me was the professor stood up during exams and shouted out every five minutes that five minutes had gone by. Where I went to school, professors weren't allowed in the room during exams. Even timed exams. I don't know, but the whole shouting out the time and stuff really sucked and did not help me learn calculus. It just distracted me and made me play games with time rather than with equations. Different environments suit different students.
- ibrahima 13y agoAs someone who graduated from Berkeley EECS, this is highly atypical. Something fishy is going on here.
- rickdale 13y agoMight be, but I swear to my story. Pretty sure the professor was a grad or phd student and all he ever liked to do was put hard ass equations on the board and toot his own horn when he solved it. I had a really hard time relating to the guy thats for sure.
- drivebyacct2 13y agoWhat a fantastic warning, I'd drop that class in a heartbeat. At least he let you know who he was right off the bat. A classroom is not the fucking Hunger Games. There's a reason businesses like to hire candidates from programs that focus on collaboration, team-work, communication and fusing business and CS such that developers can... you know... talk to clients and elicit feedback and requirements and what the client really wants, etc. Or you know, some super shy introverted developer who just got out of a gauntlet of college. Jesus.
- jackmaney 13y agoRequired attendance for college courses is bullshit. I believed that as an undergraduate. I believed that when I became a TA during my last semester as an undergraduate. I believed that throughout graduate school (where I TAed and taught several classes on my own). I believed that in my years as an Assistant Professor (before leaving for industry...long-ish story). And I most certainly believe it now. Oh, sure, attendance is important. I always encouraged students to attend my courses. But college students are adults, and we should treat them as such. You know what? If you're hungover, or sick, or just walked away from a car crash, or exhausted, or in any other state where attending class isn't the best use of your time, then by all means, don't. You're an adult now. You can make choices and take the consequences of those choices. And yes, I'll admit that I've had one or two students who skipped most of the lectures and did an excellent job on the quizzes, exams, and final (however, in my experience, students who could get away with that generally don't). These issues aside, though, I didn't go to college for nine years to be a glorified hall monitor.
- induscreep 13y agoCould you tell us why you left academia for industry?
- beambot 13y agoAgreed, monitoring for required attendance is BS. The stern wording re:grading is probably sufficient to weed out grade chasers. Providing valuable information beyond the textbook in lectures will (in effect) cause mandatory attendance or enforce subject mastery on exams.
- zhte415 13y agoI did maths in Imperial College several years ago. They had a simple way of assuring attendance: no text books. Everything was recorded by hand in the lecture (before the age of digital cameras). Not one course I took had a textbook. As a largely self taught book based nerd that didn't like authoritarian structure, I took myself to a university that was somewhat more sane.
- induscreep 13y agoHaha maybe my previous comment is off-topic, but it's because I want to read stories more like http://matt-welsh.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-im-leaving-harvard.html http://matt-welsh.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-im-leaving-harvar...
- marincounty 13y agoI had a friend who went to Berkeley 20 years ago. He told me his professor was teaching 300 students via a video monitor. Any, real instruction was taught through TA's. Plus, he said the professors didn't care about teaching; it was all about their research. Yea, I know they need to publish, but it just didn't seem fair to the students? There's a lot of students who drop out of that university, and never set foot in a college again.
- k3n 13y agoOne of the top reasons I gave up on "college" -- I'm paying for an education, so it'd be nice to be taught by, y'know, an educator. Someone who wants to teach, who enjoys their craft so much that they're excited just to talk about it... I had a few professors like that, and even though that was decades ago, I can still recall their names and mannerisms, if that tells you what kind of impact they had. They even made me enjoy classes that I loathed taking, simply because they were excited to teach it. However, as I progressed, I had fewer professors and more TA's "teaching" classes.
- derefr 13y agoIs there any resource which ranks colleges on their staff's passion+teaching ability, rather than some combination of fancy equipment and recruiting students who will do well no matter what?
- xvedejas 13y agoI am an undergrad at a university where the common sentiment is similar; professors care much more about research than teaching. However, it works out since it seems most undergrads at this school are more interested in doing research than attending classes. Maybe undergraduate education should be more research-focused at research institutes?
- antoinec 13y ago"If you feel someone is looking at your exam sheet, you should immediately stand up and report the incident – during the exam" Sounds pretty fun actually
- dsuth 13y ago"He's cheating off me!" "No, HE'S cheating off ME!" /slapfight ensues. We never had anything this ridiculous when I went to University (EE at one of the better Uni's in Australia), but reading it sure didn't make me miss the ridiculous hoops you were expected to jump through in the name of 'education'. Competitive grading is especially ridiculous and not a valid reflection of how industry actually works. Sounds like some of these professors need to be turfed out into the real world for a while.
- brianpgordon 13y ago> You may not use any electronic device during class, including computers, tablet computers, cell phones, cameras, recording devices, calculator, or any device that emits noise (such as a beeping watch). Anyone who breaks this rule will fail the course and be asked to leave. I think that at a certain point a professor's strictness just becomes an embarrassment to the department. This professor should be censured for this policy.
- nknighthb 13y agoIt's also a legal liability. He's just banned devices relied on by disabled students. His "alternative exam" will also not meet the requirements of many disabilities.
- 8ig8 13y ago> Personal medical devices (particularly hearing aids) are allowed, however. That's the next paragraph in that section of the syllabus. So I guess he's covered. Aside: Odd that hearing aids are emphasized here.
- nknighthb 13y agoThe necessary accommodations for my disability (explicitly recognized in paperwork from the college I started to go to, in case I ran into an instructor who decided they were a priest of the Church of the Luddite) do not include anything that meets any common definition, legal or otherwise, of "medical device". One might, under a broad definition, call them "assistive devices", but somehow I doubt this professor is going to recognize a common laptop or a tape recorder, among other things, as such, and he's going to embarrass, humiliate, and just generally make life difficult for any disabled student who attempts to argue with him.
- bphogan 13y agoNo, probably not. Most likely there's an uncomfortable process disabled students have to go through to get their disability documented, and then the student brings documentation to the instructor or professor who makes the accommodations stated in the plan given to the student by the ADA coordinator of the school. Trumps the syllabus always. I was a disabled student. Now I teach. It's how I've seen it work everywhere.
- jacalata 13y agoAnyone remember that course on game theory? What this course needs is for every student to turn up ten minutes late to the second class. (First class would be too hard to organise, I think).
- josephpmay 13y agoI am currently applying to college, and reading this is making me think twice about applying to Berkeley. Is the UC budget crisis really that bad? Are situations like this common?
- pkill17 13y agoThis isn't about the budget; this is about not having enough TA's to assist with the class as well as the class possibly being "too easy" the last iteration. Berkeley holds each CS course to within a range of average GPAs: If a class deviates from this range, it's deemed abnormal and the administration takes account to correct it. Speculation has it that this class was previously on the high end of the GPA range, and thus was made more "difficult".
- Bartweiss 13y agoI have heard (second hand, but from people who work directly with Berkeley staff) that least in physics their issues are this severe. Required courses are being made biannual and filling completely so that students with bad luck lose even the option of a four year degree.
- darth_aardvark 13y agoI was at berkeley for physics and computer science, and while some physics classes had problems with the number of students enrolling, they were nowhere near as bad as the CS classes. It's well known at Cal that there's way too many incoming CS major. They recently started capping the major to people above a certain GPA, but apparently that isn't enough.
- rosstex 13y agoThat new policy won't take effect until 2 years from now, unfortunately. Hopefully it will serve its purpose.
- thatswrong0 13y agoCurrent UC Berkeley EECS senior: I would apply to Berkeley but suggest you go to a better funded smaller school so long as its top ~15 if possible. Me, I had the choice between Berkeley, Illinois, and Carnegie Mellon. I do wish I had gone to Carnegie Mellon. The only two things that Berkeley really has going for it at this point is: it's close to tech companies (so tons of recruiters) and the degree still has a prestigious ring to it. Classes are packed even in upper division CS courses; I'm still waitlisted for 3 classes and have no idea which ones I'll get into. And it's only going to get worse as more people flock to CS and as the budget tightens.
- sk5t 13y agoI don't see the point of most of these policies other than to make people very, very anxious. Being late to section once or twice would seem to have no reasonable relationship to a student's understanding of the material, yet here it results in an instant F. I wonder if the instructor suffers from a personality disorder.
- acadien 13y agoHe actually has a pretty darn good rating on ratemyprof (yes I hate that site too). Anyways I suspect its his method of weeding out the students that are less passionate about the topic. As it says in the syllabus the class is overly full, and there aren't enough TAs to support it. I'm not defending his methodology, but I understand his motivation (preference to motivated students first).
- aaron695 13y agoObviously a joke of some sort [or a mental breakdown], but lets all jump on board and take it seriously shall we.
- k3n 13y agoIs there any oversight at universities to how much extra-curricular time is to be expected? When I was in school I didn't know of any oversight, but perhaps it was behind-the-scenes... > [...] you can expect to spend 20-25 hours each week on the class. IMO you should be getting 20-25 credits then. Why even bother with assigning credits to classes, if it's not at all a realistic reflection of the actual effort required? It makes the credits seem 100% arbitrary.
- beambot 13y agoCredits are based on time in class. I remember many grad classes that expected 2-3 hours per credit hour of weekly independent work. For example, problem sets and course projects were intentionally designed to push your limits. The best classes just assumed: if you're drowning, then you're probably taking in at least some of the water.
- k3n 13y agoI just see such a strict requirement, as well as the daily quizzes and attendance grades in the OP's link, as evidence of someone abusing their power in a very destructive way. These are young adults, treat them like such. If they are smart enough to pass the departmental practicums without coming to class once or doing a bit of your silly homework, then who cares? Is a diploma meant to declare mastery in a subject(s), or is it to signify your willingness to jump through figurative arbitrary hoops while wearing a tutu? If it's the former, then attendance and busy-work like daily quizzes, homework, etc. really aren't going to further that objective.
- beambot 13y agoQuick reply... I agree re:daily quizzes and attendance (per a comment elsewhere in the thread). Departmental practicums are meant as a minimum baseline. Diplomas demonstrate a combination of both subject mastery and the ability to slog through things you might not enjoy -- both important skills in any industry job.
- cdwhite 13y ago
- Ensorceled 13y agoI had an Applied Math Professor like this, "You should be spending 20 hours a week per credit". We had 6 credits per term so that left 7 hours per day for eating, sleeping, getting to class and what have you.
- solistice 13y agoHaving gone through something similar (3-4 hours of sleep daily, irregular eating), it's not worth it no matter what. Within half a year, I was a bodily wreck, coming down with regular colds/flus, several eye infections and a debilitating 2 month diarrhea that left me with a 14.something BMI. Oh, and the ensuing pandemonium got me expelled from the school, to add insult to injury. It's a damn diploma, which doesn't even guarantee you are getting a job, especially since those 7 hours left mean you don't get to network during that time. It's totally ridiculous anyone would expect you to sacrifice your health for that, and I did buy that con for far too long. Ahh, well, such are things.
- Ensorceled 13y agoI must admit these bad things never happened to me because I didn't actually work the 20 hours per credit :-)
- readme 13y agoReads like every syllabus I've ever seen: <ridiculous amount> of hours is required. If you don't put in these hours, don't expect to pass! It's just a cop-out so the professor can assert it's your fault for not studying enough if you fail. In reality, most of the kids who pass will probably study 5 ish hours per week for that class, if they are lucky and have time.
- genwin 13y agoYou get to pay out the nose for that treatment too. College is hardly worth it nowadays, and certainly won't be worth it in another decade when it has again doubled in cost in today's dollars.
- deepblueq 13y agoIt looks like it has quite a few more students than it should, and he's using every excuse he can to drop people. This isn't very nice, but I can at least understand his position. Then I saw this bit: "If you miss a class or are late to a class or section (without prior approval from the instructor) you will be considered to have dropped the class and will receive a failing grade." It's practically a lottery for bad GPAs.
- fallinghawks 13y ago"you will be considered to have dropped the class and will receive a failing grade." You can't have both. Can you?
- deepblueq 13y agoIt probably depends on the school, but where I am it sounds most like a WF - withdraw while failing. For almost all purposes it counts as an F.
- Bartweiss 13y agoThis is what through me off most - I assume he means that you'll be dropped from the class and is just trying to ramp up the fear factor even farther.
- ben1040 13y agoEscorting people to the john during an exam? This is a plain old college course, not the California bar exam. Based on this I wouldn't be surprised if the TA who is assigned "bathroom escort duty" also would be instructed to check the toilet paper roll for crib notes prior to allowing the student to relieve themselves.
- jackmaney 13y agoOkay, something seems a bit weird.... When I saw that the instructor had a gmail account listed on the third page of the syllabus, I suspected that maybe he's an adjunct and wasn't given an @berkeley.edu email address. However, he's full professor at Berkeley (http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~tygar/ http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~tygar/)....
- ramate 13y agoAs someone actually attending this class, the primary reason for this syllabus is to get 2/3 of the class to drop. They couldn't find enough TAs for the class, and were forced to rework the curriculum, as well as get enough people to drop to try to alleviate the overcrowding.
- wmf 13y agoThis almost sounds like an oblique commentary about the diligence necessary to implement secure systems. One buffer overflow and you fail.
- john_butts 13y agoWouldn't if be easier to lean on two or three grad students to step up? I genuinely don't know how these things work, but maybe that's why this looks a little nuclear to me.
- dougtygar 13y agoHi, this is Doug Tygar here -- I'm in the instructor of the course in question. I appreciate all the comments -- but for various reasons, this course had a breakdown in finding TAs: so we have 170 students and only space for about 60-90 students. I'm sorry to say that the same problem is occurring in a number of other upper division (e.g., junior-senior) level classes this semester in computer science at Berkeley -- although for various reasons, CS 161 is taking it on the nose. I really wish we had sufficient resources to teach the class properly.
- john_butts 13y agoIt seems like, for various reasons, you want to make a very public statement.
- dougtygar 13y agoJohn, that syllabus was only intended for internal Berkeley use only -- I posted it on the class blog without any thought that it would be picked up by Ycombinator. (Although, once it appeared, I did link to the topic from the class blog and encouraged the class to chime in: http://cs161.blogspot.com/2013/08/trending-on-ycombinator.html http://cs161.blogspot.com/2013/08/trending-on-ycombinator.ht... ) In case it is not 100% obvious, I'm quite unhappy with the situation (having a TA shortage, and having to run the class this way). Having said all of this, happy to see a healthy discussion in Ycombinator. I'm a big supporter of free speech, and I think there are a lot of interesting comments here. So more power to you.
- joshAg 13y agowhy are TA's so hard to come by this semester? is it due to the size of the 61 series?
- dougtygar 13y agoJosh, thanks for your input. I'm afraid that it's a bit hard to answer your question in a public forum. If any Ycombinator readers are on the Berkeley campus and want to chat with me, I'm at 739 Soda Hall.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- akozlik 13y agoI'm pretty sure this was intended to be intense specifically to push students from taking it. The professor is ensuring that he has enough TAs for students. By encouraging students to not take the class he's making the class better for those who decide to stick it out.
- anonchemucb 13y agoIn the Chemistry department, some of the classes taught large discussions. Perhaps a way of solving the problem while keeping 170 students, you could just have the TA's teach 2 discussions, maybe in the evening and just have it be in a large room. It might be impersonal but it keeps everyone without having to be anal about it.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- dougtygar 13y agoHi everyone -- Doug Tygar (the instructor) here again. I just wanted to mention that between a number of drops from the class and what looks like some more resources, I think I will be able to run the course without the draconian conditions in the original syllabus. So, we'll have an updated syllabus on Tuesday. Best wishes everyone!
- lsjaaa 13y agoHi Prof. Doug Tygar, Good evening, I am a Berkeley student in your cs161 class. I fully understand the situation. I have to say that the current syllabus is not too bad. Although the quiz part is kinda 'crazy', those quizzes will certainly force students to read the required reading before lectures, which is a good thing!!! I am not against this syllabus. However, if the student is 5 min late and he is unable to take the quiz, that would be really sad. So, if we can have a policy like having quizzes in the middle of the lecture and dropping the lowest 2 quizzes, that would solve all the problems. Again, I do believe that quiz will help students study more and read the required reading ahead. I am looking forward to a great 161 this semester. Thanks a lot for all the efforts that you have been taking in to make this course better.
- dougtygar 13y agolsjaaa - thanks! You'll hear some very good news on Tuesday morning.