3 ms·

> If you think you can just be successful by working hard you are living in a perennial state of delusion. That sentiment divides the stories of the well-known

by lutusp 13y ago

> If you think you can just be successful by working hard you are living in a perennial state of delusion. That sentiment divides the stories of the well-known and the truly great. Einstein prevailed by working hard, not by stealing the work of others. The careers of many scientists follow the same pattern -- a conscientious attribution of credit where due, followed by an important personal breakthrough. Darwin is another notable example.

kamaal 13y ago
If you work independently and the outcomes of your results are judged by an impartial authority you will succeed by working hard. The best example I can come up with is are exams. In an exam if you study well and appear for the examination you will win. Same applies to scientists. They work individually, and pretty much do work and are judged in isolation. If you work with a group of people. Politics is a inevitable consequence due to human nature and you will see how that will effect hard working people.
- James_Duval 13y ago
  > Same applies to scientists. They work individually, and pretty much do work and are judged in isolation. I don't think this is true any more. Historically, you had individual scientists working hard on very specific problem areas. Even this didn't get rid of the divide between (perceived) genius and (perceived) success. Witness the classic example of Edison vs. Tesla. However, modern scientists seem to work predominantly in groups, and are subject to the same petty intrigues and political nonsense as the rest of us.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > > Same applies to scientists. They work individually, and pretty much do work and are judged in isolation. > I don't think this is true any more. True, and to me unfortunate. Some recent LHC papers have more than 1000 authors, each of which actually contributed something to the outcome. "Did Higgs yield the most authors in a science study?" : http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57509551-1/did-higgs-yield-the-most-authors-in-a-science-study/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57509551-1/did-higgs-yie... Quote: "Two articles by the teams are each about 30 pages long. The combined author list takes up 19 pages of single-spaced text and appears to have roughly 6,000 names. Wouldn't that be fun to cite as a footnote in full?" > However, modern scientists seem to work predominantly in groups, and are subject to the same petty intrigues and political nonsense as the rest of us. All true. The movie portrayal of a 19th century scientist working alone toward a basic discovery is now a popular myth.
Tyrannosaurs 13y ago
Darwin and Einstein were a once in a generation geniuses, I'm not sure much can be extrapolated from how they worked.
coldtea 13y ago
>That sentiment divides the stories of the well-known and the truly great. Einstein prevailed by working hard, not by stealing the work of others. Well, Poincaré might want to disagree. Well, it's not like he "stole the work of others", it's about gaining from their successes. And Einstein did that too, as any scientist did: he "stood on the shoulders of giants" (Maxwell, for one).
- MrBra 13y ago
  +1 for the citation.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > And Einstein did that too, as any scientist did: he "stood on the shoulders of giants" (Maxwell, for one). Yes, certainly true, but not by stealing or failing to attribute prior work. And I agree with your suggestion that Maxwell might be a more important figure in the shaping of modern physics than most people realize.
cwzwarich 13y ago
There is actually quite a bit of historical controversy regarding Einstein's work on relativity and whether he deliberately avoided crediting the work of Poincare, Lorentz, Minkowski, and others. His initial paper on special relativity had no citations, despite the existence of a lot of relevant work by others.
- MrBra 13y ago
  After a few months Einstein wrote an 'addon' paper in which he included all citations.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > His initial paper on special relativity had no citations, despite the existence of a lot of relevant work by others. It's important to remember that what we now understand to be special relativity, with its spacetime interpretation, was crafted by others (primarily Minkowski) after the original paper. This is important to remember when reading the original paper -- we might be suffering from perfect hindsight. But I might have chosen a bad example, because it's true that Einstein tended not to attribute the work of others as much as he should have. Compare to Newton's "standing on the shoulders of giants" remark.

by lutusp 13y ago

kamaal 13y ago

If you work independently and the outcomes of your results are judged by an impartial authority you will succeed by working hard. The best example I can come up with is are exams. In an exam if you study well and appear for the examination you will win. Same applies to scientists. They work individually, and pretty much do work and are judged in isolation. If you work with a group of people. Politics is a inevitable consequence due to human nature and you will see how that will effect hard working people.

James_Duval 13y ago
> Same applies to scientists. They work individually, and pretty much do work and are judged in isolation. I don't think this is true any more. Historically, you had individual scientists working hard on very specific problem areas. Even this didn't get rid of the divide between (perceived) genius and (perceived) success. Witness the classic example of Edison vs. Tesla. However, modern scientists seem to work predominantly in groups, and are subject to the same petty intrigues and political nonsense as the rest of us.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > > Same applies to scientists. They work individually, and pretty much do work and are judged in isolation. > I don't think this is true any more. True, and to me unfortunate. Some recent LHC papers have more than 1000 authors, each of which actually contributed something to the outcome. "Did Higgs yield the most authors in a science study?" : http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57509551-1/did-higgs-yield-the-most-authors-in-a-science-study/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57509551-1/did-higgs-yie... Quote: "Two articles by the teams are each about 30 pages long. The combined author list takes up 19 pages of single-spaced text and appears to have roughly 6,000 names. Wouldn't that be fun to cite as a footnote in full?" > However, modern scientists seem to work predominantly in groups, and are subject to the same petty intrigues and political nonsense as the rest of us. All true. The movie portrayal of a 19th century scientist working alone toward a basic discovery is now a popular myth.

Tyrannosaurs 13y ago

Darwin and Einstein were a once in a generation geniuses, I'm not sure much can be extrapolated from how they worked.

coldtea 13y ago

>That sentiment divides the stories of the well-known and the truly great. Einstein prevailed by working hard, not by stealing the work of others. Well, Poincaré might want to disagree. Well, it's not like he "stole the work of others", it's about gaining from their successes. And Einstein did that too, as any scientist did: he "stood on the shoulders of giants" (Maxwell, for one).

MrBra 13y ago
+1 for the citation.
lutusp 13y ago
> And Einstein did that too, as any scientist did: he "stood on the shoulders of giants" (Maxwell, for one). Yes, certainly true, but not by stealing or failing to attribute prior work. And I agree with your suggestion that Maxwell might be a more important figure in the shaping of modern physics than most people realize.

cwzwarich 13y ago

There is actually quite a bit of historical controversy regarding Einstein's work on relativity and whether he deliberately avoided crediting the work of Poincare, Lorentz, Minkowski, and others. His initial paper on special relativity had no citations, despite the existence of a lot of relevant work by others.

MrBra 13y ago
After a few months Einstein wrote an 'addon' paper in which he included all citations.
lutusp 13y ago
> His initial paper on special relativity had no citations, despite the existence of a lot of relevant work by others. It's important to remember that what we now understand to be special relativity, with its spacetime interpretation, was crafted by others (primarily Minkowski) after the original paper. This is important to remember when reading the original paper -- we might be suffering from perfect hindsight. But I might have chosen a bad example, because it's true that Einstein tended not to attribute the work of others as much as he should have. Compare to Newton's "standing on the shoulders of giants" remark.