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I saw the Woz speak just a couple of months ago and he spent probably half an hour (total, not consecutively) of the talk bashing Jobs in various ways, talking

I saw the Woz speak just a couple of months ago and he spent probably half an hour (total, not consecutively) of the talk bashing Jobs in various ways, talking about how Jobs would take credit for his work, etc. He portrayed Jobs as a slick marketer who wasn't ashamed of making use of others' successes for his own gain.

lutusp 13y ago
I was on the scene in those times (I wrote Apple Writer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Writer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Writer) and I have to agree -- I think Steve's role at Apple resulted from a combination of his narcissism, his bullying tactics and his evangelism for the person computer, in equal measure. He ended up with an insanely great career. :)
- tomrod 13y ago
  Thank you for your work. I greatly enjoyed using Apple Writer.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    You're most welcome. At the time there was a rather stupid magazine article titled, "Will Success Spoil Paul Lutus?" When I saw it I laughed and said, "I hope so."
    - tomrod 13y ago
      Did it? :)
- michaelwww 13y ago
  I was on the scene at the time too, hired by the author of AppleWorks. The only reason AppleWorks became Microsoft Works for the Mac, a computer which desperately needed software at the time, was because the author of AppleWorks (Lissner) couldn't deal with Jobs despite being very willing. I'm not knocking Jobs, but Wozniak has every right to complain if that's what he chooses to do.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    I have a personal revelation about that. Until Apple Works got under way, Apple was paying me a lot of royalty income for Apple Writer because I had negotiated a rather high percentage in the early days, before either Apple or I understood what a normal royalty rate might be. After seeing me refuse to accept a reduction in the rate, Apple got fed up and started the Apple Works project with a much more favorable arrangement with Lissner (I think he might even have been employed as a programmer). In principle that should have produced a good outcome, because Apple Works was a much more ambitious program that did a lot more than mine. But after the Apple Works initial release, Lissner left and refused to work on the code base any more. So Apple asked me to take Apple Works over with the same arrangement Lissner had had, but by then, spoiled by the royalty arrangement and having heard too many stories about Steve's behavior, I refused. In retrospect, I had no difficulties upgrading Apple Writer and accommodating user suggestions, because I was hundreds of miles away and I wasn't an employee. By the time Apple asked me to take over Apple Works, I understood that fully -- Lissner's circumstances were unbearable -- as a result of which there was no imaginable incentive that could have gotten me into a closer working relationship with Steve.
    - michaelwww 13y ago
      I remember some shouting on the phone between Lissner and Jobs but I was just a young pup at the time and didn't understand what was going on. I think all Lissner wanted was a little respect since AppleWorks was a major seller for the Apple II line, but Jobs being Jobs he probably came across like, so what, the Apple II is dead and the Mac killed it (he was right of course.) Lissner got rich anyway and lost he drive to work on the Mac version. Our small team in Santa Cruz continued to build it, then Gates came down to meet us and bought it. Works ended up being the first really useful program on the Mac, followed a little later by Excel. I remember hearing a lot of good things about Apple Writer, but of course I used AppleWorks. Those were heady times.
kamaal 13y ago
>>who wasn't ashamed of making use of others' successes for his own gain. Trust me, that is nearly a mandatory skill you will need to have to succeed in a place of any significant size. If you think you can just be successful by working hard you are living in a perennial state of delusion.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > If you think you can just be successful by working hard you are living in a perennial state of delusion. That sentiment divides the stories of the well-known and the truly great. Einstein prevailed by working hard, not by stealing the work of others. The careers of many scientists follow the same pattern -- a conscientious attribution of credit where due, followed by an important personal breakthrough. Darwin is another notable example.
  - kamaal 13y ago
    If you work independently and the outcomes of your results are judged by an impartial authority you will succeed by working hard. The best example I can come up with is are exams. In an exam if you study well and appear for the examination you will win. Same applies to scientists. They work individually, and pretty much do work and are judged in isolation. If you work with a group of people. Politics is a inevitable consequence due to human nature and you will see how that will effect hard working people.
    - James_Duval 13y ago
      > Same applies to scientists. They work individually, and pretty much do work and are judged in isolation. I don't think this is true any more. Historically, you had individual scientists working hard on very specific problem areas. Even this didn't get rid of the divide between (perceived) genius and (perceived) success. Witness the classic example of Edison vs. Tesla. However, modern scientists seem to work predominantly in groups, and are subject to the same petty intrigues and political nonsense as the rest of us.
      - 13y ago
pix64 13y ago
Such as when Jobs got Wozniak to create Breakout for him and took the entire bonus without telling Wozniak.

lutusp 13y ago

I was on the scene in those times (I wrote Apple Writer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Writer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Writer) and I have to agree -- I think Steve's role at Apple resulted from a combination of his narcissism, his bullying tactics and his evangelism for the person computer, in equal measure. He ended up with an insanely great career. :)

tomrod 13y ago
Thank you for your work. I greatly enjoyed using Apple Writer.
- lutusp 13y ago
  You're most welcome. At the time there was a rather stupid magazine article titled, "Will Success Spoil Paul Lutus?" When I saw it I laughed and said, "I hope so."
  - tomrod 13y ago
    Did it? :)
michaelwww 13y ago
I was on the scene at the time too, hired by the author of AppleWorks. The only reason AppleWorks became Microsoft Works for the Mac, a computer which desperately needed software at the time, was because the author of AppleWorks (Lissner) couldn't deal with Jobs despite being very willing. I'm not knocking Jobs, but Wozniak has every right to complain if that's what he chooses to do.
- lutusp 13y ago
  I have a personal revelation about that. Until Apple Works got under way, Apple was paying me a lot of royalty income for Apple Writer because I had negotiated a rather high percentage in the early days, before either Apple or I understood what a normal royalty rate might be. After seeing me refuse to accept a reduction in the rate, Apple got fed up and started the Apple Works project with a much more favorable arrangement with Lissner (I think he might even have been employed as a programmer). In principle that should have produced a good outcome, because Apple Works was a much more ambitious program that did a lot more than mine. But after the Apple Works initial release, Lissner left and refused to work on the code base any more. So Apple asked me to take Apple Works over with the same arrangement Lissner had had, but by then, spoiled by the royalty arrangement and having heard too many stories about Steve's behavior, I refused. In retrospect, I had no difficulties upgrading Apple Writer and accommodating user suggestions, because I was hundreds of miles away and I wasn't an employee. By the time Apple asked me to take over Apple Works, I understood that fully -- Lissner's circumstances were unbearable -- as a result of which there was no imaginable incentive that could have gotten me into a closer working relationship with Steve.
  - michaelwww 13y ago
    I remember some shouting on the phone between Lissner and Jobs but I was just a young pup at the time and didn't understand what was going on. I think all Lissner wanted was a little respect since AppleWorks was a major seller for the Apple II line, but Jobs being Jobs he probably came across like, so what, the Apple II is dead and the Mac killed it (he was right of course.) Lissner got rich anyway and lost he drive to work on the Mac version. Our small team in Santa Cruz continued to build it, then Gates came down to meet us and bought it. Works ended up being the first really useful program on the Mac, followed a little later by Excel. I remember hearing a lot of good things about Apple Writer, but of course I used AppleWorks. Those were heady times.

kamaal 13y ago

>>who wasn't ashamed of making use of others' successes for his own gain. Trust me, that is nearly a mandatory skill you will need to have to succeed in a place of any significant size. If you think you can just be successful by working hard you are living in a perennial state of delusion.

lutusp 13y ago
> If you think you can just be successful by working hard you are living in a perennial state of delusion. That sentiment divides the stories of the well-known and the truly great. Einstein prevailed by working hard, not by stealing the work of others. The careers of many scientists follow the same pattern -- a conscientious attribution of credit where due, followed by an important personal breakthrough. Darwin is another notable example.
- kamaal 13y ago
  If you work independently and the outcomes of your results are judged by an impartial authority you will succeed by working hard. The best example I can come up with is are exams. In an exam if you study well and appear for the examination you will win. Same applies to scientists. They work individually, and pretty much do work and are judged in isolation. If you work with a group of people. Politics is a inevitable consequence due to human nature and you will see how that will effect hard working people.
  - James_Duval 13y ago
    > Same applies to scientists. They work individually, and pretty much do work and are judged in isolation. I don't think this is true any more. Historically, you had individual scientists working hard on very specific problem areas. Even this didn't get rid of the divide between (perceived) genius and (perceived) success. Witness the classic example of Edison vs. Tesla. However, modern scientists seem to work predominantly in groups, and are subject to the same petty intrigues and political nonsense as the rest of us.
    - 13y ago

pix64 13y ago

Such as when Jobs got Wozniak to create Breakout for him and took the entire bonus without telling Wozniak.