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So even if Walmart has poorly allocated its returns, I'd rather see those margins distributed to customers or foreign suppliers first, because my hunch is that

So even if Walmart has poorly allocated its returns, I'd rather see those margins distributed to customers or foreign suppliers first, because my hunch is that the humanitarian impact would be greater on these groups, who I see as larger, poorer, and having fewer substitutes. Exactly. The basic argument is that Walmart should engage in charity by paying above-market wages to its employees. But there are much more effective ways to be charitable; mosquito nets in Africa and anti-aging research comes immediately to mind. Also interesting is that Walmart gets bashed for relatively low wages, but doesn't get credit for employing lots and lots of people. Imagine the reaction if they announced that they were doubling salaries and laying off half their workforce.

cowsandmilk 13y ago
> there are much more effective ways to be charitable; mosquito nets in Africa and anti-aging research comes immediately to mind. You are crazy if you think those are more effective use for WalMart's money, especially the anti-aging research.
- eru 13y ago
  Just silly examples. If you want some more conventional, donate to Doctors Without Borders.
- polymatter 13y ago
  Anti-aging research I have to agree. But according to Givewell (http://www.givewell.org/ http://www.givewell.org/) who do research into cost effective use of charity money, mosquito nets are very effective. Their #1 recommendation is the Against Malaria Foundation who "provides long-lasting insecticide-treated nets (for protection against malaria) in bulk to other organizations, which then distribute them in developing countries." "AMF is a recommended organization because of its: - focus on a program with a strong track record and excellent cost-effectiveness (more). - standout transparency and accountability - it publishes photographs and reports from each of its distributions and requires that organizations that distribute its nets monitor the usage and condition of nets in the years following the distribution and track and provide monthly malaria case rate data (more). - room for more funding - AMF has told us that it can use additional funding to expand its core program and has committed to reporting on how additional funds are used and what results are achieved." Even if you don't accept Givewell's research, I think there is enough evidence here to doubt the statement that you wouldn't be "crazy" to think their were more effective use of money than mosquito nets.
Avshalom 13y ago
If paying your employees is 'charity' what the hell do you call stock dividends?
- wffurr 13y ago
  Capitalism.
- briandear 13y ago
  Stock dividends are a return on the investment made by investors. Many of us in the startup space would be unemployed if it weren't for that pesky thing called capitalism. VCs and investors aren't charities. They risk money for a return. Granted most VCs and angels are after capital appreciation, but for larger companies, especially those with a shelf life beyond the duration of the latest tech trend, dividends are a significant reason to invest in a particular stock. The retirement funds of a large percentage of people absolutely depend on dividend-earning stocks. Let's not forget that those shareholders aren't Wall Street "fat cats." They are pension funds, teacher retirement funds and granny's retirement savings. So if you raise wages, you lower dividends (or raise prices, which lower demand) and THAT hurts the people that can least afford it -- those retirees that don't have the option to go find a higher paying job. Let's look at it this way -- no one is forced to work at Walmart. If Walmart employees think they are worth more, then they can quit and sell their services to someone willing to pay more. If someone isn't willing to pay more, then obviously they aren't worth more. There's an argument that the government should simply require companies to pay more. That's fine and dandy, except now what happens to the cost of goods? It necessarily has to rise. So that means that everyone has to effectively subsidize workers' wages. Yet how is it fair that we have to pay more for goods (or higher taxes) to subsidize others? In 2006-2007 I lived for several months in my car, ate Ramen almost every day for 6 months when I didn't have a job. I lost my apartment and eventually my car because I made some dumb mistakes both financially and personally. Yet during that time, I didn't ask for the government or any of you to give me some of your paycheck. I chose not to get married or have children until I could afford it. I didn't demand that you pay $2 more for a Big Mac so I could make more money. Eventually, moved to Korea, then China to English, then taught myself software development and now I'm doing ok. These "sad" stories about people who work for 10 years at McDonalds for 7 bucks an hour don't move me one bit. If after 10 years you can't improve your lot in life, you're either stupid, lack ambition or you're a star in a Charles Dickens novel. There are plenty of stories about the single mom who worked minimum wage while earning a degree in night school and then going on to greater things. It can be done, it's up to the person. If we incentivize working shitty jobs, what's going to drive innovation and aspiration? I refuse to subsidize wages in the name of "fairness." What's unfair is that I pay 30% of my income in taxes, plus sales taxes, property taxes, gas taxes, cell phone "universal service fee" taxes, and my telephone bill STILL has an excise tax on it that was supposed to fund the Spanish-American war! And what do I get for those taxes? I still have to pay $82 to get more pages added to a passport at the US Consulate. I still have to pay $25 at the DMV for a drivers license. I still have to pay yearly auto registration and inspections. I still have to pay tolls for bridges (and tunnels) that were built with taxpayer money (I'm looking at you Lincoln Tunnel with your $13 one-way toll!) I have to pay almost 50% in taxes and fees for airline tickets and still have to deal with crappy infrastructure, a manically inept TSA, shitty transportation systems and public schools that I wouldn't send a dog to. Yet somehow certain groups of people get free cell phones, free medical care (I pay $1300 a month for a family of 4,) subsidized housing (there's public housing in Chelsea, NYC!) food stamp cards on which you can buy lobster and organic peaches and educational grants and subsidized loans for people to go to school. I'm not arguing for or against any of those government programs, but if you're asking me to pay a buck more for a box of Kraft Macaroni & Cheese, you're out of your g'damned mind.

cowsandmilk 13y ago

> there are much more effective ways to be charitable; mosquito nets in Africa and anti-aging research comes immediately to mind. You are crazy if you think those are more effective use for WalMart's money, especially the anti-aging research.

eru 13y ago
Just silly examples. If you want some more conventional, donate to Doctors Without Borders.
polymatter 13y ago
Anti-aging research I have to agree. But according to Givewell (http://www.givewell.org/ http://www.givewell.org/) who do research into cost effective use of charity money, mosquito nets are very effective. Their #1 recommendation is the Against Malaria Foundation who "provides long-lasting insecticide-treated nets (for protection against malaria) in bulk to other organizations, which then distribute them in developing countries." "AMF is a recommended organization because of its: - focus on a program with a strong track record and excellent cost-effectiveness (more). - standout transparency and accountability - it publishes photographs and reports from each of its distributions and requires that organizations that distribute its nets monitor the usage and condition of nets in the years following the distribution and track and provide monthly malaria case rate data (more). - room for more funding - AMF has told us that it can use additional funding to expand its core program and has committed to reporting on how additional funds are used and what results are achieved." Even if you don't accept Givewell's research, I think there is enough evidence here to doubt the statement that you wouldn't be "crazy" to think their were more effective use of money than mosquito nets.

Avshalom 13y ago

If paying your employees is 'charity' what the hell do you call stock dividends?

wffurr 13y ago
Capitalism.
briandear 13y ago
Stock dividends are a return on the investment made by investors. Many of us in the startup space would be unemployed if it weren't for that pesky thing called capitalism. VCs and investors aren't charities. They risk money for a return. Granted most VCs and angels are after capital appreciation, but for larger companies, especially those with a shelf life beyond the duration of the latest tech trend, dividends are a significant reason to invest in a particular stock. The retirement funds of a large percentage of people absolutely depend on dividend-earning stocks. Let's not forget that those shareholders aren't Wall Street "fat cats." They are pension funds, teacher retirement funds and granny's retirement savings. So if you raise wages, you lower dividends (or raise prices, which lower demand) and THAT hurts the people that can least afford it -- those retirees that don't have the option to go find a higher paying job. Let's look at it this way -- no one is forced to work at Walmart. If Walmart employees think they are worth more, then they can quit and sell their services to someone willing to pay more. If someone isn't willing to pay more, then obviously they aren't worth more. There's an argument that the government should simply require companies to pay more. That's fine and dandy, except now what happens to the cost of goods? It necessarily has to rise. So that means that everyone has to effectively subsidize workers' wages. Yet how is it fair that we have to pay more for goods (or higher taxes) to subsidize others? In 2006-2007 I lived for several months in my car, ate Ramen almost every day for 6 months when I didn't have a job. I lost my apartment and eventually my car because I made some dumb mistakes both financially and personally. Yet during that time, I didn't ask for the government or any of you to give me some of your paycheck. I chose not to get married or have children until I could afford it. I didn't demand that you pay $2 more for a Big Mac so I could make more money. Eventually, moved to Korea, then China to English, then taught myself software development and now I'm doing ok. These "sad" stories about people who work for 10 years at McDonalds for 7 bucks an hour don't move me one bit. If after 10 years you can't improve your lot in life, you're either stupid, lack ambition or you're a star in a Charles Dickens novel. There are plenty of stories about the single mom who worked minimum wage while earning a degree in night school and then going on to greater things. It can be done, it's up to the person. If we incentivize working shitty jobs, what's going to drive innovation and aspiration? I refuse to subsidize wages in the name of "fairness." What's unfair is that I pay 30% of my income in taxes, plus sales taxes, property taxes, gas taxes, cell phone "universal service fee" taxes, and my telephone bill STILL has an excise tax on it that was supposed to fund the Spanish-American war! And what do I get for those taxes? I still have to pay $82 to get more pages added to a passport at the US Consulate. I still have to pay $25 at the DMV for a drivers license. I still have to pay yearly auto registration and inspections. I still have to pay tolls for bridges (and tunnels) that were built with taxpayer money (I'm looking at you Lincoln Tunnel with your $13 one-way toll!) I have to pay almost 50% in taxes and fees for airline tickets and still have to deal with crappy infrastructure, a manically inept TSA, shitty transportation systems and public schools that I wouldn't send a dog to. Yet somehow certain groups of people get free cell phones, free medical care (I pay $1300 a month for a family of 4,) subsidized housing (there's public housing in Chelsea, NYC!) food stamp cards on which you can buy lobster and organic peaches and educational grants and subsidized loans for people to go to school. I'm not arguing for or against any of those government programs, but if you're asking me to pay a buck more for a box of Kraft Macaroni & Cheese, you're out of your g'damned mind.