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Except that your comment is completely nonsensical... You can't apply one industries hiring metrics to anothers as if they translate in some way(when they clear

by ZoF 13y ago

Except that your comment is completely nonsensical... You can't apply one industries hiring metrics to anothers as if they translate in some way(when they clearly don't). Not being passionate about laying bricks doesn't mean you won't be hired for menial labor, not being passionate about a position in this industry might very well stop your from being hired for a programming job...

johnward 13y ago
but why must you be passionate about software development? What if you aren't really passionate but you are still a good programmer? What's so bad about that? I'm curious because I've never really been "passionate" about any job. In fact I've dislike or downright hated every job I've ever had. I still think I perform well because I have to. Jobs are a means to an end.
- ZoF 13y ago
  Yep, I agree, I wasn't trying to say that the process of determining whether someone is "passionate" is the correct way of doing things.... For an intelligent person the system is easy to identify and cheat anyway... I was just pointing out that a bricklayer won't be vetted for "passion" whereas a programmer very well could be.... Whether a programmer should be(especially given that "passion" is basically an impossible to measure metric) is an entirely different discussion. My apologies for presenting my point in such a confusing manner.
VLM 13y ago
"when they clearly don't" Why? Other than the obvious appeal to authority "ZoF says so" and excluding the obvious passion oriented professions such as appearing to be passionate when being hired as an actor for a formulaic romantic comedy or appearing to be passionate when applying to become a prostitute / escort? Assuming its sane and wise for HR to demand intense feelings of passion when solving fizzbuzz, why shouldn't an otherwise supposedly sane profession like bricklayers apprentice demand gooey steamy firey passion with respect to hauling five gallon buckets of premix thinset mortar around a jobsite? Apparently passion is more important at higher level jobs, so beyond apprentice work, if my journeyman plumber felt intense passion for copper tube compression fittings when he replaced my toilet, I would have a substantially improved bathroom experience every time I flush. And if this is an absolute laughingstock when applied to construction, why is such unprofessional behavior tolerated in the software development hiring process? What it really is, is a test for lying. Can you lie to me well enough to convince me either I'm a really good liar, or so easily seen through that you're never going to pull the wool over my eyes? HR/mgmt assumes you'll by definition be a crook, after all, who claimed 25 years of Scala development on his resume to match the ridiculous job requirements and checkboxes, which were designed so only the guy we already selected could possibly be hired, how did this guy sneak past? Its basically insulting, and seeing how you'll respond to being insulted. Pitifully this is how we select our coworkers.
- ZoF 13y ago
  Sorry, I feel like I've miss-stated my point. I'm not saying the policy of "determining whether one is passionate" is a good way of determining whether someone should be hired(in fact I think it's quite retarded). All I was trying to say is that A bricklayer would not go through the same vetting process that a programmer would, whether that process is effective or moral is irrelevant to my point. I was just saying that the fields have completely different hiring processes and comparing the two objectively as if they are similar is nonsensical.

by ZoF 13y ago

johnward 13y ago

but why must you be passionate about software development? What if you aren't really passionate but you are still a good programmer? What's so bad about that? I'm curious because I've never really been "passionate" about any job. In fact I've dislike or downright hated every job I've ever had. I still think I perform well because I have to. Jobs are a means to an end.

ZoF 13y ago
Yep, I agree, I wasn't trying to say that the process of determining whether someone is "passionate" is the correct way of doing things.... For an intelligent person the system is easy to identify and cheat anyway... I was just pointing out that a bricklayer won't be vetted for "passion" whereas a programmer very well could be.... Whether a programmer should be(especially given that "passion" is basically an impossible to measure metric) is an entirely different discussion. My apologies for presenting my point in such a confusing manner.

VLM 13y ago

"when they clearly don't" Why? Other than the obvious appeal to authority "ZoF says so" and excluding the obvious passion oriented professions such as appearing to be passionate when being hired as an actor for a formulaic romantic comedy or appearing to be passionate when applying to become a prostitute / escort? Assuming its sane and wise for HR to demand intense feelings of passion when solving fizzbuzz, why shouldn't an otherwise supposedly sane profession like bricklayers apprentice demand gooey steamy firey passion with respect to hauling five gallon buckets of premix thinset mortar around a jobsite? Apparently passion is more important at higher level jobs, so beyond apprentice work, if my journeyman plumber felt intense passion for copper tube compression fittings when he replaced my toilet, I would have a substantially improved bathroom experience every time I flush. And if this is an absolute laughingstock when applied to construction, why is such unprofessional behavior tolerated in the software development hiring process? What it really is, is a test for lying. Can you lie to me well enough to convince me either I'm a really good liar, or so easily seen through that you're never going to pull the wool over my eyes? HR/mgmt assumes you'll by definition be a crook, after all, who claimed 25 years of Scala development on his resume to match the ridiculous job requirements and checkboxes, which were designed so only the guy we already selected could possibly be hired, how did this guy sneak past? Its basically insulting, and seeing how you'll respond to being insulted. Pitifully this is how we select our coworkers.

ZoF 13y ago
Sorry, I feel like I've miss-stated my point. I'm not saying the policy of "determining whether one is passionate" is a good way of determining whether someone should be hired(in fact I think it's quite retarded). All I was trying to say is that A bricklayer would not go through the same vetting process that a programmer would, whether that process is effective or moral is irrelevant to my point. I was just saying that the fields have completely different hiring processes and comparing the two objectively as if they are similar is nonsensical.