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Building a Software Company in Rwanda, 3 Years Later
- nicpottier 13y agoOP here, happy to answer any questions peeps have on Nyaruka and our little journey.
- wehadfun 13y agoDo you have to worry about Hutu/Tutsi issues still?
- nicpottier 13y agoNo, not at all. Rwanda is probably safer than any place in the states.. you can walk around anywhere in the city in the middle of the night (and I do) and there are no concerns. There is still unrest in DRC but that is very much localized.
- agumonkey 13y agoAlmost unbelievable. After all the past.
- gejjaxxita 13y agoI'm very surprised to hear you say that. My experience of Rwanda is that the issue is always just below the surface. I spent three months there 3 years ago working as a Physics teacher. The election was on when I was there and it was rather surreal, the radio was constantly going on about genocide and there was a lot of tension in the air.
- nicpottier 13y agoTension and violence are different things. This is still the very recent past, it is unrealistic to expect there to be no tension, especially during times of election or genocide memorials. But there is no denying it is incredibly safe and there has been so much invested in the country in the past 20 years that I just can't imagine anything happening here.
- KeepTalking 13y agoNope/Not as much. That was a mid 1990's issue. Rwanada under paul kagame has made some really good strides in development. Raising coffee and tea prices have helped the local economy to a great extent. I agree problems still exist but they are not show stoppers.
- Peroni 13y agoYou mention you have two young kids. What's the education system like in general for kids in Rwanda?
- enewcomer 13y agoI don't have a lot of experience for what school is like generally, but I can speak about it from an ex-pat's perspective. Our kids go to a Rwandan school (though a prestigious private school). It's far, far cheaper than private school in the states. Like most schools, the experience you have is highly dependent on the teacher you get, but we've been pretty lucky in that regard. In some ways the academics are a step down and in others they are step up. For example, some of the subjects can be a bit rote, but my youngest has half of his classes taught in french (even though we are not french speakers). On the whole we are quite satisfied with their school. We also remind ourselves that as humans, we learn in so many ways and having our kids experience life in Rwanda (or anywhere outside of America for that matter) is one of the finest gifts we can offer.
- 616c 13y agoI live abroad and my soon is not even a year old. I look forward to this, and the idea of having a grandson who will speaks multiple languages natively (I am English-speaking, my SO speaks Arabic natively) is very exiciting to my parents. I am waiting until he is older, but I look forward to even getting him into a language school so he will natively speak 3 or more languages. Only if they had Chinese schools where I am . . .
- rmason 13y agoMove to Oakland county outside Detroit where the public schools teach Mandarin from first grade on. Even better they use teachers from China. http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2013/03/04/news/local_news/doc513533174801e567922231.txt http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2013/03/04/news/loca... Their long term goal is that with the entire population someday being fluent in Mandarin the area will become the first choice for Chinese manufacturing firms setting up plants in the U.S.
- mkessy 13y agoI asked this question the last time your little shop popped up on HN. What are some other areas in Rwanda/East Africa that software is taking hold? It seems that many of the software projects are aiding NGO and the state, which is good, but in some respects it seems like the 'NGO' economy if you will is a bit artificial. Could you give me examples of companies or ventures that are using software (or frameworks like yours) to build profitable software companies? What are the opportunities like? This really interests me as I'm seriously considering moving to East Africa after I graduate (Tanzania most likely.) Thanks and keep up the awesome work!
- joseph 13y agoI have been interested in your company since I first heard of it a while ago so I am glad to see it is doing well. How is the infrastructure in Rwanda with regards to ecommerce? I have investigated doing business in Kenya but two of the biggest problems there are 1) online payments are not easy since few people use credit cards and paying online with M-Pesa is clumsy, and 2) there are no street addresses so it makes certain types of ecommerce difficult since there is no address to deliver a product if you are selling a physical one, or doing any type of pickup/delivery service involving locations. How are these issues dealt with in Rwanda?
- nicpottier 13y agoYes, both those challenges still exist, payments are actually even worse here than Kenya because there isn't huge adoption of any mobile money platform yet. Both of those pretty much preclude doing anything ecommerce related
- shoover 13y agoAnd to look at commerce in the other direction, how is access to things you need for home/work? Say you need a new development laptop, are you going to amazon, local retain, or something else? More on the consumables side, how's the coffee?
- nicpottier 13y agoHeh, the answer here is friends with suitcases. You can buy some electronics here, Samsung and LG have a big presence, but it is at a premium. We are an Apple shop and all MBPs were bought in the states by us or friends. That might sound like a bad thing but it is actually one of my favorite things about living here. You are just completely separated and freed from the crazed consumer culture of the States, just because none of it is available. And you don't realize how much that frees your head space (or at least mine) until you experience it. It is a fantastic place to just get work done because there is very little to distract you, in every respect really. Coffee is pretty great if you buy the good stuff, though really the very best gets bought up and exported.
- yitchelle 13y agoWhat is the biggest challenge your have found starting a software company in Rwanda, and how did you resolve it?
- nicpottier 13y agoRwanda is a small market, so while we tried to build a few products for the local market it just wasn't big enough to make the numbers work out. In the end we decided to build a product that had a global reach and in that respect I think there is much more promise. From a purely administrative point of view it has been very easy and predictable, well, no harder really than the states that is.
- hyung 13y agoThis question might be too broad, but how would you compare the infrastructure, English level, technical talent, etc. of Rwanda with other African nations?
- nicpottier 13y agoAfrica is a huge, huge place, it is hard to even fathom how big and varied it is. East, West, North, South are all really really different. Within East Africa, Rwanda fares well from an infrastructure point of view, lags a bit in English due to being Francophone until recently and on talent, I'd say most are at similar levels. The talent is everywhere, but really the skills are far behind the west pretty much everywhere as well.
- wehadfun 13y agoWhy did you choose Rawanda over South Africa/Nigeria/Morocco which I would think would be easier African countries to work in
- nicpottier 13y agoI can't say that we evaluated every country before choosing Rwanda, to be perfectly honest we didn't look at that many, we just decided that Rwanda was 'good enough' and would probably work so we went for it. The three countries you list are very very different from Rwanda and from each other, so it is hard to comment on that. In many ways South Africa has more in common with California than it does with Rwanda.
- mayank 13y agoI'd be curious to hear more about this decision. I note that it lies somewhere approximately in between the extremes of Kenya/Nigeria/SA on one end and Central African Republic on the other.
- nicpottier 13y agoAs I said we didn't do a super lengthy weighting of countries, you could drive yourself crazy doing that. Rather we saw it was a place where we could move the needle, Kigali is a safe, beautiful and pleasant city to live in and we thought we had a chance of not going totally broke. We didn't spend much time at all weighing against other countries, just decided this seemed like a place that could use more experienced folks and would work out.
- mwcampbell 13y agoI find it sad that a company based in Rwanda, primarily targeting East Africa, decided to use infrastructure owned by an American company and operating in the US. Did you look for an infrastructure provider that's more local? Maybe one of the European hosting providers, if there isn't a good one in Africa? (Note: I happen to be American. But that doesn't mean I automatically think that the whole world should use our products and services.)
- nicpottier 13y agoI'm ex-Amazon and believe they provide an awesome service, so no, I don't see any problem or sadness in that in the least. The last thing the world needs is propping up inferior systems for the sake of Nationalism, much less in the software sector. Amazon provides a great product and has never let us down, if an East African competitor pops up and does the same, I'll move in a heartbeat.
- mwcampbell 13y agoFor me it's not about nationalism as much as avoiding excessive centralization. I find it appalling that so many services are concentrated in a few buildings in northern Virginia. (Or is it one building?) Did you at least use a region other than us-east-1? I can't tell from reverse DNS lookups or traceroute.
- nicpottier 13y agoI'm ok with centralization. Again if a better provider pops up, I'll move there, but until then I'm fine with commodities going to the best providers.
- redmattred 13y agoWhy is that sad exactly? They want working, reliable software for their users and Amazon can help them provide that. Some decisions are practical not political.
- sorich87 13y ago
- jalayir 13y agoAre you or one of the founders native to Rwanda? What's the electricity situation like? What's the ease of doing business for complete outsiders?
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- jacquesm 13y agoWhat a super project this. It's braver than anything I'd ever attempt, I try to sweep my own street as much as possible but this is so far out of my comfort zone (starting with the climate) that I have nothing but sheer admiration for you.
- enewcomer 13y agoFor me, moving from Seattle to Kigali was all about just deciding to do it. After the decision was made it was far, far easier. I've got a wife and kids too. I think if this is something you want, just taking the plunge without thinking too hard about it is the only way it can really happen. As for the climate, I can say that in Rwanda it is amazing. Pretty much beautiful weather every single day. It's near the equator, but at elevation. So it hovers around 80 degrees most days with a gentle breeze. It can get hot in the middle of the day, but not uncomfortably so. Rainy season brings torrential downpours for an hour or so twice a day -- which is always welcomed.
- jacquesm 13y agoYou've got me sold :) How old are your kids? (mine 1, 3 and 19...). If you want to make some quick money you should take out a life insurance on me just before I explain the plan to my s.o.
- enewcomer 13y agoKids are 7 and 9. But Nic is spot on above. It really is just a bunch of small steps except for maybe a biggish one to get started. Thankfully that's the only hard one. But ya, the other thing you can do is reach out to the folks in the region you are interested in and just see how you can get involved. Relocating may in the end just seem like a natural next step. To be honest, Kigali is one of the easiest places to do this in Africa (if not the easiest) when looking at all factors, so we are bit spoiled in that regard. I was surprised, when talking this over with my wife she was on board right from the beginning and even moved here sight-unseen. So, I'm grateful for that. Having kids also adds the extra hurdles of finding schools and such, but nothing too difficult.
- davidwparker 13y agoI went to Rwanda last year and it was by far one of the most beautiful countries I've visited. Being a "Mzungu" ("rich" person- note I'm not really rich, but am compared to most Rwandans) was definitely something I didn't expect. For some reason, I had no expectations about class prior to going. It's really cool that you started this company there and are looking to help Rwanda from the inside out. Good luck to you- if (when) I go back to Rwanda, I'll be sure to come check out kLab.
- jhull 13y agoWho needs cheese when you have an unlimited supply of matoke?[1] Have you seen any positive changes in ICT ed from the Carnegie Mellon program[2] that started there? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matoke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matoke [2] http://www.cmu.edu/rwanda/ http://www.cmu.edu/rwanda/
- nicpottier 13y agoHah, matoke is most definitely NOT a viable substitute to cheddar! It is early days still for CMU, they are only just starting their second year, but I think their influence here and in the region will be huge, mostly because there just aren't many (any?) other top tier universities here. Their program isn't straight CS, but it does offer CS courses and the profs are top grade, so the graduates will be head and shoulders above others in the region. The long term impact of that could be pretty huge.
- jorkos 13y agoI notice that the pricing plans don't reward the middle tier as compared to the first tier.....would have expected that middle one to offer savings per SMS sent versus the first tier. My 2 cents feedback. Service looks very useful, congrats!
- nicpottier 13y agoYa, that's mostly because we decided to discount the lowest plan for launch, it will 'normally' be $49 in the future, so then things will ramp the way you'd expect.
- heterogenic 13y agoCould you be a bit more specific when you say Kigali is "safe"? Is it safe for me to move to as a woman? Is it safe for me to bring my wife and kids? These things are often relative.
- nicpottier 13y agoYes and yes. My business partner, Eric, moved his family here, two young kids and his wife. Moving at night, even as a woman is very safe and commonplace in most parts of Kigali. It really is ridiculously safe here by any standard. As an example, I am much less concerned about female friends of mine walking around alone at night in Kigali than I am my neighborhood back home in Seattle. (granted I lived in the CD which is higher crime, but still)
- heterogenic 13y agoSorry, I should have been more clear... Is it safe for me, a woman, to visit there with my wife and kids? We've ruled out most of Africa in our globe trotting, but have really missed it.
- nicpottier 13y agoAh, sorry, yes I missed that distinction. Neighboring Uganda is very much not a great place to be for same sex couples. I do not believe Rwanda has any laws against homosexuality, but honestly you don't see it very openly here. It is still very conservative. I would say if you are visiting it wouldn't be a problem, definitely wouldn't worry from a safety point of view. If you were planning on moving here then I honestly probably wouldn't recommend it, not because of safety, but just that you would be going against the grain.
- enewcomer 13y agoAs I'm sure you already know, gay rights have a long, long way to go in the region. If I were gay, it probably wouldn't be at the top of my list :(
- cocoflunchy 13y agoI never thought I'd hear an American complain about lack of good cheese. You guys have never tasted cheese! Great project anyway, very inspiring!
- nicpottier 13y agoTo be fair I spent the first half of my childhood in France, so I beg to differ. :) But like I said, after years of gouda, even cheddar starts seeming like an incredible delicacy. I even like gouda, you just need some variety!
- 205guy 13y agoLived in France half his childhood and likes good cheese != American. Pines for cheddar != French. I can relate (except for the cheddar thing, especially the cheddar that American audiences are thinking of). The digital nomads are from everywhere and from nowhere, and I wonder about our children.
- krichman 13y agoAnd damn it, that's not a Scotsman, either!
- felixr 13y agoThe problem with Gouda is that you get it everywhere, but not the quality Gouda. I love a old Gouda (oude kaas). Unfortunately what you get in supermarkets (outside the Netherlands) is not comparable to the really good stuff.
- joelhaasnoot 13y agoThis is awesome! Grew up abroad and this seems like a great opportunity. Was it easy to get a work permit / visa for Rwanda?
- nicpottier 13y agoWe are both college dropouts, so the first go around took a bit of convincing, but since we had a pretty lengthy work history we convinced them in the end. After that it has been smooth sailing, Rwanda is pretty friendly to foreign investment in general.
- enewcomer 13y agoRwanda has a classification specifically for technology entrepreneurs. It's a 3-year visa and if you are a qualified software practitioner, I don't foresee you having difficulty getting a permit to start a software company here. They also pride themselves on same-day business registration. https://www.migration.gov.rw/services/permits/temporary-permits/w-information-technology/w2/ https://www.migration.gov.rw/services/permits/temporary-perm...
- notahacker 13y agoA smart move. How common are those sort of visas in developing countries?
- joelhaasnoot 13y agoMy main concern in this question is that I've heard of a growing concern in East Africa that foreigners are taking jobs/money out of the country instead of investing. From what I've heard, Rwanda sounds perfect, though Kenya has pretty amazing infrastructure too. Kenya is however a lot more dangerous than Rwanda sounds.
- enewcomer 13y agoI've certainly heard some of that, but I don't think it applies quite as much to tech entrepreneurs -- and I've seen more evidence of that in say, Kenya. If you are coming here to build a software company, I would be surprised if Rwanda's arms weren't opened pretty wide. At this point, Nairobi has more going on in it's tech scene and certainly a more mature market to sell into, but you are right, it's definitely not as safe and transparent as Kigali.
- abhiv 13y agoWhat's the electricity situation like? Do you need to have diesel generators?
- nicpottier 13y agoPower is fine 95% of the time, but yes outages happen though infrequently for long. We work on laptops so it isn't a huge issue, but you do learn to plan around it. (aka, keep said laptop charged)
- pekru 13y agoAnd the broadband bandwidth and speeds? Is it very pricey to have a 10 Mbps downlink (upto 4Mbps uplink) connection?
- enewcomer 13y agoThat's not really an option at all, at least not to your house. At the kLab we have a 15Mbps line allocated for us, but the realities of oversea (well, undersea) bandwidth purchases means we often don't really see that. Most people not at kLab get mobile data connections that in good areas when it's working well can get downloads between 200KBs up to 1MBps (those are bytes, not bits) depending on the time of day. Up oftentimes is about the same as down. It's not heavily throttled as you see in many other countries. These data plans are also very cheap. Really, the biggest problem here isn't so much the speed these days, it's that the connection occasionally just stops working altogether.
- contingencies 13y agoI have also lived in weird places (eg. China/Burma border) for extended periods and know exactly what you mean about cheese. We also had matoke equivalents (ie. multiple versions of starchier bananas, almost always tastier than 'normal' bananas).
- brianbreslin 13y ago@nicpottier loved the post would also love to see how can we help k lab from the us? Or help in any of the other local initiatives you are doing to foster a community around tech.
- pekru 13y agoOff track, but I noticed the .in domain that's chosen. Any particular reason to have the India TLD? Or just that it sounds like a phrase "text it in" ...?
- enewcomer 13y agoWe'd love to have the .com, but it's not in the cards. But ya, we chose the India TLD for exactly the reason you suspect.. text it in.
- greenbush 13y agoYour app is pretty cool. How long did it take to build? How big of a team?