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Not so fast. Spin doctoring is no substitute for substance. As Caesar used to say, "fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt" (people are ready to believe

Not so fast. Spin doctoring is no substitute for substance. As Caesar used to say, "fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt" (people are ready to believe what they want to be the case). The fact of the matter is that New Zealand has passed a law with some restrictive language, but this is far from abolition. Broad swaths of software patents can still be granted. Here's my more detailed take on it: http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/08/new-zealand-parliament-adopts-uk.html http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/08/new-zealand-parliament-ad... And this is what a publication read by patent lawyers says: http://www.iam-magazine.com/blog/Detail.aspx?g=96d4aeaf-dedf-4ab8-a1f6-f28e2ea1ba0d http://www.iam-magazine.com/blog/Detail.aspx?g=96d4aeaf-dedf...

logn 13y ago
The rationale here was that they still wanted to allow patents of machines and devices and they had to draw the line somewhere since software these days is embedded in almost everything. I think New Zealand has a very good set of laws in place and has shown remarkable courage to pass this anti-software-patent legislation. Unfortunately, their legislation to support government surveillance and software backdoors is really terrible.
1010011010 13y ago
Are you still getting paid by Oracle?
- kvb 13y ago
  Is that relevant to the merits of his argument?
  - teddyh 13y ago
    Well, as he said, “Spin doctoring is no substitute for substance.”.
  - parfe 13y ago
    Since Mueller isn't a lawyer, and his only other credentials are being a paid lobbyist, yeah it matters. Sure a lobbyist might be correct, but why would you trust them for information to begin with? And looking at his post with a sceptical mind would have you learn his only third party source is a magazine whose tag-line is "Maximising IP value for business". Even if correct his post is blatant propaganda. In fact, I'd go so far as to question why he chose today to register an account on hacker news. This isn't the first patent related news we've seen.
    - anon1385 13y ago
      >In fact, I'd go so far as to question why he chose today to register an account on hacker news. He has actually commented here with a different account in the past: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=FlorianMueller https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=FlorianMueller Your personal attacks really don't have any relevance to the legal questions at hand. Trying to muddy the discussion with irrelevant speculation about people's motives is totally unnecessary when the legislation is there for any of us to read.
      - venus 13y ago
        > Trying to muddy the discussion with irrelevant speculation about people's motives is totally unnecessary In an ideal world, where we all had an infinite amount of time to research any and all items of controversy in their entirity, I would agree with you. In this hyper-specialized world, where we basically look to others to do the research and summarize for us, motives are extremely relevant and it is the height of naivety to pretend otherwise.
        bostonpete 13y ago
        Everyone has motives and biases but it's not fair to attack someone in this forum just because you happen to know their motives and biases. I don't see your contact info or bio listed in your profile -- how are we to trust your motives without knowing more about you? We should discuss ideas on their merits rather than trying to psychoanalyze or dig up dirt on the commenter.
  - superkamiguru 13y ago
    considering the whole google vs oracle thing... yes.
  - venus 13y ago
    Let's cut to the chase. No-one has time to become an expert on absolutely everything. To some extent, we have to choose who to listen to, and then trust that they are speaking true. Anything else is completely unmanageable. So your argument, while logically correct, is not applicable. In the real world, we don't take the sex offender's word that our child is safe on its pure merits. When someone with a long and vivid history of acting against the interests of the community speaks, it is on them to overcome the prejudice against them, not on us.
    - kvb 13y ago
      I don't get it. Let's stipulate that he is an Oracle puppet. Why would that incentivize him to lie about what the bill actually covers? Regardless of his incentives, is he wrong that not all software patents would be prevented under this bill? Disclosure: I'm a Microsoft employee, so I probably have some devious motives, too.
      - venus 13y ago
        Do you know what a heuristic is? Basically, being an Oracle puppet is an extremely negative heuristic for being a useful voice on anything related to software IP. Absent compelling evidence to the contrary, I am inclined to ignore any and all opinions of said puppet. And FWIW, being a Microsoft employee defending an Oracle stooge doesn't play all that well either. Isn't this all common sense?
        kvb 13y ago
        I can certainly see how being an Oracle puppet would make it hard to trust his coverage of the Oracle/Google spat. I don't see how it affects his take on the contents of the NZ bill, particularly since the text of the bill is available and no one has countered his assertions! Also, I'm not "defending" him. I don't know if he is or is not a shill, and I don't care. But he made verifiable statements about the content of the bill. All I want to know is, are his statements wrong?
        Steko 13y ago
- hack_edu 13y ago
  As if Oracle has a history in doing anything at all clever or interesting....
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

logn 13y ago

The rationale here was that they still wanted to allow patents of machines and devices and they had to draw the line somewhere since software these days is embedded in almost everything. I think New Zealand has a very good set of laws in place and has shown remarkable courage to pass this anti-software-patent legislation. Unfortunately, their legislation to support government surveillance and software backdoors is really terrible.

1010011010 13y ago

Are you still getting paid by Oracle?

kvb 13y ago
Is that relevant to the merits of his argument?
- teddyh 13y ago
  Well, as he said, “Spin doctoring is no substitute for substance.”.
- parfe 13y ago
  Since Mueller isn't a lawyer, and his only other credentials are being a paid lobbyist, yeah it matters. Sure a lobbyist might be correct, but why would you trust them for information to begin with? And looking at his post with a sceptical mind would have you learn his only third party source is a magazine whose tag-line is "Maximising IP value for business". Even if correct his post is blatant propaganda. In fact, I'd go so far as to question why he chose today to register an account on hacker news. This isn't the first patent related news we've seen.
  - anon1385 13y ago
    >In fact, I'd go so far as to question why he chose today to register an account on hacker news. He has actually commented here with a different account in the past: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=FlorianMueller https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=FlorianMueller Your personal attacks really don't have any relevance to the legal questions at hand. Trying to muddy the discussion with irrelevant speculation about people's motives is totally unnecessary when the legislation is there for any of us to read.
    - venus 13y ago
      > Trying to muddy the discussion with irrelevant speculation about people's motives is totally unnecessary In an ideal world, where we all had an infinite amount of time to research any and all items of controversy in their entirity, I would agree with you. In this hyper-specialized world, where we basically look to others to do the research and summarize for us, motives are extremely relevant and it is the height of naivety to pretend otherwise.
      - bostonpete 13y ago
        Everyone has motives and biases but it's not fair to attack someone in this forum just because you happen to know their motives and biases. I don't see your contact info or bio listed in your profile -- how are we to trust your motives without knowing more about you? We should discuss ideas on their merits rather than trying to psychoanalyze or dig up dirt on the commenter.
- superkamiguru 13y ago
  considering the whole google vs oracle thing... yes.
- venus 13y ago
  Let's cut to the chase. No-one has time to become an expert on absolutely everything. To some extent, we have to choose who to listen to, and then trust that they are speaking true. Anything else is completely unmanageable. So your argument, while logically correct, is not applicable. In the real world, we don't take the sex offender's word that our child is safe on its pure merits. When someone with a long and vivid history of acting against the interests of the community speaks, it is on them to overcome the prejudice against them, not on us.
  - kvb 13y ago
    I don't get it. Let's stipulate that he is an Oracle puppet. Why would that incentivize him to lie about what the bill actually covers? Regardless of his incentives, is he wrong that not all software patents would be prevented under this bill? Disclosure: I'm a Microsoft employee, so I probably have some devious motives, too.
    - venus 13y ago
      Do you know what a heuristic is? Basically, being an Oracle puppet is an extremely negative heuristic for being a useful voice on anything related to software IP. Absent compelling evidence to the contrary, I am inclined to ignore any and all opinions of said puppet. And FWIW, being a Microsoft employee defending an Oracle stooge doesn't play all that well either. Isn't this all common sense?
      - kvb 13y ago
        I can certainly see how being an Oracle puppet would make it hard to trust his coverage of the Oracle/Google spat. I don't see how it affects his take on the contents of the NZ bill, particularly since the text of the bill is available and no one has countered his assertions! Also, I'm not "defending" him. I don't know if he is or is not a shill, and I don't care. But he made verifiable statements about the content of the bill. All I want to know is, are his statements wrong?
      - Steko 13y ago
hack_edu 13y ago
As if Oracle has a history in doing anything at all clever or interesting....
deleted 13y ago
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