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Regardless of the quality of their hardware, would you support a company that doesn't pay taxes, that's turning their OS more and more into a cage, that lets th

Regardless of the quality of their hardware, would you support a company that doesn't pay taxes, that's turning their OS more and more into a cage, that lets their hardware be assembled in factories where employees work in harsh circumstances, etc? In other words: Is a good product more important than ethics?

moogleii 13y ago
Where are these other magical brands that don't use factories in China?
- mvanvoorden 13y ago
  That was not the question, and not the only point I mentioned.
dubcanada 13y ago
Oh cause nobody else uses Foxconn. Certainly not Dell or any other computer seller.
selfexperiments 13y ago
I was thinking along the same lines the other day when I saw a big billboard promoting Ontario eggs and how "fresh" they are. How well the chickens are treated should be most important to a civilized society.
mikhailt 13y ago
Really, you're bringing in ethnics and politics in this? You should be blaming the governments for allowing everybody to bypass the taxes with BS loopholes and everything. It's not ethnics, it's pure business. Apple is a business, just like Dell, HP, etc, their primary function is to maximize the profits at any given costs. If there are loopholes in the tax laws that allows the companies to legally not pay taxes, it is their function to take advantage of it. The US government confirmed that Apple DID NOT BREAK any laws. IIRC, the top 20 companies didn't pay 1.2 trillion of dollars that they would own to US government if there were no loopholes. Every frigging tech company is pulling the same BS. Now, turning their OS more into a cage? Proof? I haven't seen them do anything in the last 5 years to turn OS X into a cage. Factories, really? Apple is just a small part of the big problem here, and Apple is actually the one of the FEW companies that mandated the factories to improve their stuff. I don't see anybody else on public saying they'll force the factories to do stuff. In other words, buying or not buying a Mac, IT WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. He needs a good product, he can get a MBA if he wants. If he wants to fight the power, he can do it on a MBA that'll last 12+ hour for him.
- mvanvoorden 13y ago
  It's easy to blame the governments for everything that goes wrong. WE the people are the ones in power. WE the people are the ones who vote for the policies of a company by buying their products. Since when did we shift all of our responsibilities to government? Do we really want to government to control every aspect of what a person or company can or can't do? If yes, then we can't blame the same government that we have to pay so much taxes or complain about lesser freedoms. And it's not the function of a company to behave unethic just because it's legal. Legality has nothing to do with it. And at the same time, I don't judge anyone for buying at these companies, I just want to make people aware of what it means when you buy some company's product. OSX is slowly moving towards an operating system where you can only buy at the App Store. Now you still can install outside of it, but the step of adding a checkbox to disable this has already been taken. I would not be surprised if this functionality will become the same as they do on iOS, which is already quite a cage. About the factories I know that more companies use for example Foxconn, but that doesn't change the fact that this happens and they continue to use the services of these companies. I'm not judging anyone for buying Apple products, nor do I try to push any opinion. I was just asking a question with the intent that this information might be taken into consideration and to point out our responsibilities as people for the behavior of companies.
winter_blue 13y ago
Breaking down your points: > a company that doesn't pay taxes Every company has an incentive to pay less taxes. Even people do. (I'm not necessarily saying it's the right thing, or endorsing it.) But this is the government's realm. > turning their OS more and more into a cage This would actually be a deal breaker for me. If OS X turned into anything like iOS, where you need prior approval before being able to run certain code, that would be it for me. I don't think Apple's going to do it though. Way too many developers use Macbooks, and I doubt they'd want to piss them all off. Also, Tim Cook is at the wheel now -- he seems like a bit more practical and mellow person than Steve Jobs (this ain't necessarily a good thing) - so I doubt he'd do anything radical like this. > lets their hardware be assembled in factories where employees work in harsh circumstances I'd like to see this change - but is there anything much we can do about it? I haven't come across ant "Fair Trade" laptops yet (unlike with food, clothing, etc). Definitely would be good to go with a company that treats their workers well - but then there's also the issue of verification, of whether they do what they promise to. On the positive side though, Apple claims to be environment-friendly - I hope their claims are true.

moogleii 13y ago

Where are these other magical brands that don't use factories in China?

mvanvoorden 13y ago
That was not the question, and not the only point I mentioned.

dubcanada 13y ago

Oh cause nobody else uses Foxconn. Certainly not Dell or any other computer seller.

selfexperiments 13y ago

I was thinking along the same lines the other day when I saw a big billboard promoting Ontario eggs and how "fresh" they are. How well the chickens are treated should be most important to a civilized society.

mikhailt 13y ago

Really, you're bringing in ethnics and politics in this? You should be blaming the governments for allowing everybody to bypass the taxes with BS loopholes and everything. It's not ethnics, it's pure business. Apple is a business, just like Dell, HP, etc, their primary function is to maximize the profits at any given costs. If there are loopholes in the tax laws that allows the companies to legally not pay taxes, it is their function to take advantage of it. The US government confirmed that Apple DID NOT BREAK any laws. IIRC, the top 20 companies didn't pay 1.2 trillion of dollars that they would own to US government if there were no loopholes. Every frigging tech company is pulling the same BS. Now, turning their OS more into a cage? Proof? I haven't seen them do anything in the last 5 years to turn OS X into a cage. Factories, really? Apple is just a small part of the big problem here, and Apple is actually the one of the FEW companies that mandated the factories to improve their stuff. I don't see anybody else on public saying they'll force the factories to do stuff. In other words, buying or not buying a Mac, IT WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. He needs a good product, he can get a MBA if he wants. If he wants to fight the power, he can do it on a MBA that'll last 12+ hour for him.

mvanvoorden 13y ago
It's easy to blame the governments for everything that goes wrong. WE the people are the ones in power. WE the people are the ones who vote for the policies of a company by buying their products. Since when did we shift all of our responsibilities to government? Do we really want to government to control every aspect of what a person or company can or can't do? If yes, then we can't blame the same government that we have to pay so much taxes or complain about lesser freedoms. And it's not the function of a company to behave unethic just because it's legal. Legality has nothing to do with it. And at the same time, I don't judge anyone for buying at these companies, I just want to make people aware of what it means when you buy some company's product. OSX is slowly moving towards an operating system where you can only buy at the App Store. Now you still can install outside of it, but the step of adding a checkbox to disable this has already been taken. I would not be surprised if this functionality will become the same as they do on iOS, which is already quite a cage. About the factories I know that more companies use for example Foxconn, but that doesn't change the fact that this happens and they continue to use the services of these companies. I'm not judging anyone for buying Apple products, nor do I try to push any opinion. I was just asking a question with the intent that this information might be taken into consideration and to point out our responsibilities as people for the behavior of companies.

winter_blue 13y ago

Breaking down your points: > a company that doesn't pay taxes Every company has an incentive to pay less taxes. Even people do. (I'm not necessarily saying it's the right thing, or endorsing it.) But this is the government's realm. > turning their OS more and more into a cage This would actually be a deal breaker for me. If OS X turned into anything like iOS, where you need prior approval before being able to run certain code, that would be it for me. I don't think Apple's going to do it though. Way too many developers use Macbooks, and I doubt they'd want to piss them all off. Also, Tim Cook is at the wheel now -- he seems like a bit more practical and mellow person than Steve Jobs (this ain't necessarily a good thing) - so I doubt he'd do anything radical like this. > lets their hardware be assembled in factories where employees work in harsh circumstances I'd like to see this change - but is there anything much we can do about it? I haven't come across ant "Fair Trade" laptops yet (unlike with food, clothing, etc). Definitely would be good to go with a company that treats their workers well - but then there's also the issue of verification, of whether they do what they promise to. On the positive side though, Apple claims to be environment-friendly - I hope their claims are true.