Yea that's just the thing. I don't build web apps. I was a backend developer and there are lot of things that have to happen on the backend that doesn't fit in

Yea that's just the thing. I don't build web apps. I was a backend developer and there are lot of things that have to happen on the backend that doesn't fit in the standard CRUD or MVC pattern. I think you're overgeneralizing on the last point. I've shipped things without a framework that have been some of the most stable pieces of software I've written.