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> C# > We have a better IDE than the Java guys Biased Java guy here. Completely disagree. Yes VS lets you build nice UIs with drag and drop. But if you com

by tieTYT 13y ago

> C# > We have a better IDE than the Java guys Biased Java guy here. Completely disagree. Yes VS lets you build nice UIs with drag and drop. But if you compare bare bones Intellij IDEA to bare bones Visual Studio, Intellij IDEA wins everywhere else. All things being equal (that includes programming languages), you can be more productive in Intellij IDEA because its got the fundamentals down and has intuitive shortcuts for doing everything. Of course I haven't used VS for about 5 years. Keep that in mind. But back then IDEA was light years ahead and .NET devs still thought VS was better.

edwinnathaniel 13y ago
As long as the .NET guys don't have Maven they can't win. I can check-out a Java project that contains pom.xml using the big 3 Java IDEs out there (Eclipse, IntelliJ, NetBeans), compile, build, run unit-testing, integration-testing, navigate my codebase like crazy. But you know, I'm gettin tired singing the same choir of Java. .NET guys can sing how great their C# languages and VS.NET are but we know Java ecosystems win hands down End-To-End; we got it cover from distributed systems, big-data, enterprise, "service oriented", dependency management, build, validation (findbugs, checkstyle). Eclipse + essential plugins are more than enough for me (albeit I'm using IntelliJ these days) and it's free.
- jrochkind1 13y ago
  Ha! I think what might seperate Java lovers from Java haters is whether you consider `maven` to be an asset or a liability! Those who only occasionally use Java when they have to... tend to find maven incredibly confusing to get working properly.
  - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
    Hahahaha, I think you're on to something there! I wouldn't call myself a Java lovers as I'm moving away from Java lately but so far I haven't found a comparable tool to build+dependency that Maven provides nor I have found a good ecosystems that adhere to non-breaking fundamental building-block standards (Servlet, JSP, JPA2, EJB3-lite, JMS, etc). Yes, Maven could be painful to start with especially without someone who had previous experience on your team but feature-wise, nothing competes with it yet. Ruby needs RubyGems and Bundler (and Rake to that extends) to compete with Maven. I heard the philosophy of "Do one thing and do it well" but if you're using those tools altogether every time (Rails) then what's the point...?
    - jrochkind1 13y ago
      I don't understand what you mean by "ruby needs RubyGems and Bundler to compete with maven." Sure, and Java needs maven to compete with RubyGems and Bundler. ? Oh wait, you think it's significant that on ruby it's two cooperative tools with two different names, compared to one tool on Java? I don't see how that matters too much in practice. (But it does, in real life, is it really just maven, or is it maven, and definitely ant, and maybe ivy too? heheh.) I will admit that I find bundler a lot easier to use than maven, but I'm definitely a rubyist more than a javaite. I _think_ that someone who only occasionally needs to use ruby will find bundler easier than someone who only occasionally needs to use java will find maven. But maybe that's just my own prejudice, I could be wrong there.
      - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
        Oh I'm not referring to which one is easier to use but merely on the features. Maven = Bundler + RubyGems + Rake Maven = Ant + Ivy Maven = not-sure-what-the-equiv-in-python (pip is more along rubygems?) I don't think Maven is easy to use if you have to write from scratch (you need an IDE or something to generate the initial POM first ). I'm also questioning if it's necessary to have RubyGems separated from Bundler when in real-life, you'd almost always use both anyway (along with Rake) to have a more productive workflow.
        jrochkind1 13y ago
        Yeah, it probably would lead to less bugs and easier to follow documentation if they were joined, but such is open source sometimes. And it ends up being not a huge problem in practice, I think. Don't people similarly often use ivy _with_ maven, as an extra layer that makes certain aspects of maven easier? Maybe I had that wrong. And I thought maven use almost always included using ant. Maybe I had that wrong too. So not a java guy. Ah, from the Ivy project's own documentation, sounds like I did have it wrong: > First, the most important difference is that they aren't at all the same kind of tools. Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool, whereas Apache Ivy is only a dependency management tool, highly integrated with Apache Ant™, That does make it seem like maven isn't neccesarily the "do one thing and do it well" tool you were suggesting it was though! That might be more what ivy is trying to do?
- tieTYT 13y ago
  Yes but I thought everyone uses VS for .NET development? Am I wrong about that? If I'm right, your point is kind of moot.
  - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
    VS.NET comes in many editions with some limitations. For example: VS.NET Express does not allow you to have any plugins (or used to, never checked anymore) which means you can't run your NUnit from there and expect code-coverage instantly show up once you ran them. Their NuGet solution somehow seems limited compare to Maven eclipse plugin where it can download the JAR, JavaDoc, and Source if required whenever someone needs to navigate the source code of 3rd-party lib.
    - brimanning 13y ago
      You shouldn't be using the Express version for professional development anyway, you really need to use the paid version - that's a whole different Java vs .NET debate running into OS vs proprietary that will never end. As for NuGet, as soon as you build, all code, docs, etc are right there and it's up to the creator of the library to have created the info. It manages versioning and updating for you as well.
      - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
        Excellent, I didn't know that (about NuGET), here's the link for those who are interested to know how to set it up: http://blog.davidebbo.com/2011/04/easy-way-to-publish-nuget-packages-with.html http://blog.davidebbo.com/2011/04/easy-way-to-publish-nuget-... Unfortunately the whole debate of OSS vs Proprietary does matter when it comes to "which tools is better". I know it'll never end but it affects the playing fields. The fact that you can get up to speed very very quickly without spending money or talking to Finance, MS Sales/re-sellers using Eclipse+plugins and Java+OSS libraries/frameworks that were more mature is probably a significant point on this debate.
        rjbwork 13y ago
mattmanser 13y ago
Both you and Edwin don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about. Drag & Drop? Lack of end-to-end support? Maven? Just all showing your lack of experience in .net I wouldn't mind if they were decent criticisms but they're not
- tieTYT 13y ago
  If I'm so clueless, why don't you enlighten me by telling me what makes VS better than Intellij IDEA? I suspect a bit of the Blub paradox (applied to IDEs instead of programming languages) is occurring here. I don't see what a lack in .net experience has to do with anything. I'll be the first to admit C# is a better language than Java. This is a comparison between two IDEs. I've used both. I was shocked at what VS couldn't do.
- edwinnathaniel 13y ago
  I used to work for MS in 2007. I used VS.NET for a while in 2010 (for couple months, mostly writing code and unit-tests via NUnit) and in 2012 doing mostly Sharepoint so I may be outdated. Back in 2008-2010, I used Eclipse exclusively with Maven (and m2clipse), FindBugs, Checkstyle, PMD, Hudson (Jenkins nowadays), Spring, GWT, with some exposure to HBase and Hadoop. I never had to wrestle with any licensing issues at all. If I want to use something I would go to the internet and download them (IDE, plugins, tools, libraries or whatnot). They're also high-quality grade tools and not toys or something with serious limitation that forces you to buy the commercial offerings. Feel free to invalidate my opinions. Love to see a better version of NuGET. Love to see VS.NET Express to support plugins. Love to see what great cool plugins exist for VS.NET. Love to see any heavy-weight framework/libraries from .NET that are being used in large-scale and in may areas. It wouldn't hurt if you can list them here for the benefit of everybody else as well. PS: Mylyn is a very underrated tool. I heard they're going to port Mylyn to VS.NET but haven't seen it from their product page yet as of today.
Semaphor 13y ago
As someone who started using Java during college for a side job and after getting a job at the company afterwards switching to C# mostly: IntelliJ vs VS? IntelliJ wins (though VS got way closer). But with plugins? Or mainly one plugin: ReSharper (for those who don't know it's a plugin for VS made by the guys who make IntelliJ). VS with ReSharper has become my favorite IDE.
LoneWolf 13y ago
My first thought too, being an Intellij IDEA user (and mostly java developer) I was annoyed with that affirmation. I had the need to use Visual Studio recently and I can say it is still light years behind Intellij.
- rjbwork 13y ago
  I've found that Resharper, by JetBrains, the guys who make Intellij, makes VS the most productive development environment I've yet used.
rjbwork 13y ago
We don't really use designers anymore outside of quick low volume enterprisey data driven apps. It's all about the MVC3/4 and EF5 (6 soon!) stuff. We have Resharper now, made by JetBrains, the Intellij guys, and it kicks total ass. Refactoring is a breeze, and it really helps with dealing with legacy code. I was reared on Java, but at this point I don't think I could go back. C# is just so far ahead of java in terms of language design and features at this point, and Linq is bloody amazing. It's far easier for me to transfer the ideas in my head to my C# code than pretty much any other language I've used at this point, excepting Python for simple algorithmic problems.
- tieTYT 13y ago
  Just FYI, if I were in your boat I'd probably feel the same way. I chose my words very carefully: 1. I compared bare-bones IDEs because I know resharper levels the playing field. 2. When I said, "All things being equal (that includes programming languages)" I meant I feel that C# is a better language, but I'm choosing to ignore that so I could compare IDEs apples to apples.

by tieTYT 13y ago

edwinnathaniel 13y ago

As long as the .NET guys don't have Maven they can't win. I can check-out a Java project that contains pom.xml using the big 3 Java IDEs out there (Eclipse, IntelliJ, NetBeans), compile, build, run unit-testing, integration-testing, navigate my codebase like crazy. But you know, I'm gettin tired singing the same choir of Java. .NET guys can sing how great their C# languages and VS.NET are but we know Java ecosystems win hands down End-To-End; we got it cover from distributed systems, big-data, enterprise, "service oriented", dependency management, build, validation (findbugs, checkstyle). Eclipse + essential plugins are more than enough for me (albeit I'm using IntelliJ these days) and it's free.

jrochkind1 13y ago
Ha! I think what might seperate Java lovers from Java haters is whether you consider `maven` to be an asset or a liability! Those who only occasionally use Java when they have to... tend to find maven incredibly confusing to get working properly.
- edwinnathaniel 13y ago
  Hahahaha, I think you're on to something there! I wouldn't call myself a Java lovers as I'm moving away from Java lately but so far I haven't found a comparable tool to build+dependency that Maven provides nor I have found a good ecosystems that adhere to non-breaking fundamental building-block standards (Servlet, JSP, JPA2, EJB3-lite, JMS, etc). Yes, Maven could be painful to start with especially without someone who had previous experience on your team but feature-wise, nothing competes with it yet. Ruby needs RubyGems and Bundler (and Rake to that extends) to compete with Maven. I heard the philosophy of "Do one thing and do it well" but if you're using those tools altogether every time (Rails) then what's the point...?
  - jrochkind1 13y ago
    I don't understand what you mean by "ruby needs RubyGems and Bundler to compete with maven." Sure, and Java needs maven to compete with RubyGems and Bundler. ? Oh wait, you think it's significant that on ruby it's two cooperative tools with two different names, compared to one tool on Java? I don't see how that matters too much in practice. (But it does, in real life, is it really just maven, or is it maven, and definitely ant, and maybe ivy too? heheh.) I will admit that I find bundler a lot easier to use than maven, but I'm definitely a rubyist more than a javaite. I _think_ that someone who only occasionally needs to use ruby will find bundler easier than someone who only occasionally needs to use java will find maven. But maybe that's just my own prejudice, I could be wrong there.
    - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
      Oh I'm not referring to which one is easier to use but merely on the features. Maven = Bundler + RubyGems + Rake Maven = Ant + Ivy Maven = not-sure-what-the-equiv-in-python (pip is more along rubygems?) I don't think Maven is easy to use if you have to write from scratch (you need an IDE or something to generate the initial POM first ). I'm also questioning if it's necessary to have RubyGems separated from Bundler when in real-life, you'd almost always use both anyway (along with Rake) to have a more productive workflow.
      - jrochkind1 13y ago
        Yeah, it probably would lead to less bugs and easier to follow documentation if they were joined, but such is open source sometimes. And it ends up being not a huge problem in practice, I think. Don't people similarly often use ivy _with_ maven, as an extra layer that makes certain aspects of maven easier? Maybe I had that wrong. And I thought maven use almost always included using ant. Maybe I had that wrong too. So not a java guy. Ah, from the Ivy project's own documentation, sounds like I did have it wrong: > First, the most important difference is that they aren't at all the same kind of tools. Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool, whereas Apache Ivy is only a dependency management tool, highly integrated with Apache Ant™, That does make it seem like maven isn't neccesarily the "do one thing and do it well" tool you were suggesting it was though! That might be more what ivy is trying to do?
tieTYT 13y ago
Yes but I thought everyone uses VS for .NET development? Am I wrong about that? If I'm right, your point is kind of moot.
- edwinnathaniel 13y ago
  VS.NET comes in many editions with some limitations. For example: VS.NET Express does not allow you to have any plugins (or used to, never checked anymore) which means you can't run your NUnit from there and expect code-coverage instantly show up once you ran them. Their NuGet solution somehow seems limited compare to Maven eclipse plugin where it can download the JAR, JavaDoc, and Source if required whenever someone needs to navigate the source code of 3rd-party lib.
  - brimanning 13y ago
    You shouldn't be using the Express version for professional development anyway, you really need to use the paid version - that's a whole different Java vs .NET debate running into OS vs proprietary that will never end. As for NuGet, as soon as you build, all code, docs, etc are right there and it's up to the creator of the library to have created the info. It manages versioning and updating for you as well.
    - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
      Excellent, I didn't know that (about NuGET), here's the link for those who are interested to know how to set it up: http://blog.davidebbo.com/2011/04/easy-way-to-publish-nuget-packages-with.html http://blog.davidebbo.com/2011/04/easy-way-to-publish-nuget-... Unfortunately the whole debate of OSS vs Proprietary does matter when it comes to "which tools is better". I know it'll never end but it affects the playing fields. The fact that you can get up to speed very very quickly without spending money or talking to Finance, MS Sales/re-sellers using Eclipse+plugins and Java+OSS libraries/frameworks that were more mature is probably a significant point on this debate.
      - rjbwork 13y ago

mattmanser 13y ago

Both you and Edwin don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about. Drag & Drop? Lack of end-to-end support? Maven? Just all showing your lack of experience in .net I wouldn't mind if they were decent criticisms but they're not

tieTYT 13y ago
If I'm so clueless, why don't you enlighten me by telling me what makes VS better than Intellij IDEA? I suspect a bit of the Blub paradox (applied to IDEs instead of programming languages) is occurring here. I don't see what a lack in .net experience has to do with anything. I'll be the first to admit C# is a better language than Java. This is a comparison between two IDEs. I've used both. I was shocked at what VS couldn't do.
edwinnathaniel 13y ago
I used to work for MS in 2007. I used VS.NET for a while in 2010 (for couple months, mostly writing code and unit-tests via NUnit) and in 2012 doing mostly Sharepoint so I may be outdated. Back in 2008-2010, I used Eclipse exclusively with Maven (and m2clipse), FindBugs, Checkstyle, PMD, Hudson (Jenkins nowadays), Spring, GWT, with some exposure to HBase and Hadoop. I never had to wrestle with any licensing issues at all. If I want to use something I would go to the internet and download them (IDE, plugins, tools, libraries or whatnot). They're also high-quality grade tools and not toys or something with serious limitation that forces you to buy the commercial offerings. Feel free to invalidate my opinions. Love to see a better version of NuGET. Love to see VS.NET Express to support plugins. Love to see what great cool plugins exist for VS.NET. Love to see any heavy-weight framework/libraries from .NET that are being used in large-scale and in may areas. It wouldn't hurt if you can list them here for the benefit of everybody else as well. PS: Mylyn is a very underrated tool. I heard they're going to port Mylyn to VS.NET but haven't seen it from their product page yet as of today.

Semaphor 13y ago

As someone who started using Java during college for a side job and after getting a job at the company afterwards switching to C# mostly: IntelliJ vs VS? IntelliJ wins (though VS got way closer). But with plugins? Or mainly one plugin: ReSharper (for those who don't know it's a plugin for VS made by the guys who make IntelliJ). VS with ReSharper has become my favorite IDE.

LoneWolf 13y ago

My first thought too, being an Intellij IDEA user (and mostly java developer) I was annoyed with that affirmation. I had the need to use Visual Studio recently and I can say it is still light years behind Intellij.

rjbwork 13y ago
I've found that Resharper, by JetBrains, the guys who make Intellij, makes VS the most productive development environment I've yet used.

rjbwork 13y ago

We don't really use designers anymore outside of quick low volume enterprisey data driven apps. It's all about the MVC3/4 and EF5 (6 soon!) stuff. We have Resharper now, made by JetBrains, the Intellij guys, and it kicks total ass. Refactoring is a breeze, and it really helps with dealing with legacy code. I was reared on Java, but at this point I don't think I could go back. C# is just so far ahead of java in terms of language design and features at this point, and Linq is bloody amazing. It's far easier for me to transfer the ideas in my head to my C# code than pretty much any other language I've used at this point, excepting Python for simple algorithmic problems.

tieTYT 13y ago
Just FYI, if I were in your boat I'd probably feel the same way. I chose my words very carefully: 1. I compared bare-bones IDEs because I know resharper levels the playing field. 2. When I said, "All things being equal (that includes programming languages)" I meant I feel that C# is a better language, but I'm choosing to ignore that so I could compare IDEs apples to apples.