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I hate to draw the comparison, but it reminds me even more of this: ""What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever wi

by aqme28 13y ago

I hate to draw the comparison, but it reminds me even more of this: ""What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing. "What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it. "This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter." More: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

minimax 13y ago
So now we're suggesting the United Kingdom in 2013 is like Nazi Germany in 1933? Snowden-era Hacker News has gotten completely ridiculous.
- aqme28 13y ago
  Godwin's law aside, how is it more ridiculous than comparing it to science fiction?
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  I downvoted you for your mid-brow dismissal of the parent comment. Yes, there are parallels between UK in 2013 and Nazi Germany in 1933. Scary parallels. People who know their history understand that authoritarianism and fascism tend to take hold within a relatively short amount of time. In Germany for example, the Nazi party was formed in 1920, came to power in 1925 and within a decade it was implementing racist and nationalist policies all over the country. We all know what that led to.
- malandrew 13y ago
  Tell us what about that excerpt doesn't precisely describe what has been occurring in the US? No one said we're going to become Nazi Germany, but Nazi Germany also didn't appear out of thin air. There were a series of actions and evolution at the state level that eventually provided the necessary preconditions for Nazi Germany to exist. I'm sure that what ended up being Nazi Germany was one of several path that Germany could have taken given those necessary preconditions that permitted its existence. We don't know what those other paths are, one of those paths could be where we end up instead. What is known, is that this ever widening gap permits individuals, possibly several acting in concert and possibly in the belief that they are doing the right thing to exert undue influence upon the political decisions of the country for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many. The two wars we have become embroiled in unnecessarily are prime examples of such acts. We probably won't become Nazi Germany. But there is nothing going on that suggests that we won't become something that is a democracy or republic only in name, and that the will of the people and the rights of individuals simply become inconsequential. I personally have no reason to believe that we will become Nazi Germany, but I have every reason to believe that we are becoming a nation that no longer protects my rights and the rights of my fellow citizens and that we are becoming a nation that protects the self interest of the few at the expense of the self interest of the many... us.
  - madaxe 13y ago
    No no, you see, the Germans were EVIL and were knowingly doing terrible things because they enjoyed them. Hitler was drinking the blood of children while the wehrmacht paraded guns around going "BLITZKREIG! BLITZKREIG!", and everyone supped from the skulls of slaves on a daily basis. Sadly, this was the vision promulgated by western propaganda, as the notion that a civilised group of people could end up where Germany ended up was unconscionable, and incomprehensible to most - and this visage is still stuck in the mind of most as "how NAZIsm happened", rather than the very slippery, very real slope they found themselves tumbling down.
    - minimax 13y ago
      Go back to Reddit.
- jahewson 13y ago
  That would be the same United Kingdom that now has posters on busses in London telling illegal immigrants to go home? The one with the opt-out web-filter to stop "terrorists" and "paedophiles" who can't Google "proxy"? The one where failing to turn your encryption key over to the police will land you in jail? The one where teenagers are arrested for obvious jokes on Twitter? That United Kingdom?
- kbenson 13y ago
  The Nazis have been given this special place in history, in discussions, in almost all aspects they've been examined, such that they are seen as the extreme end of the spectrum in almost all cases, brutality, efficiency, deadliness, zealousness, etc. Propaganda is good for motivating people, it's not good for making rational, informed decisions (indeed, it's point is to bypass rational decision making by applying to emotional cues). The truth is, they were an entire country of people, with varying and diverse opinions on everything. The fact that we elevate them to this position does not make us less likely to follow their path, by viewing them as so distinct from us, it makes us more likely. There's a little Nazi in all of us, and the sooner we come to terms with that, the better we'll be at noticing and taming it.
- zalfak 13y ago
  the Number Of People supporting Snowden On This Site Just Makes Me Sick. He Is A Traitor To His Country and Should Be Treated As Such. To Those Of You Reading This That Are American: Do You Honestly Feel Our Country Is Better Off Now Than Before Our State Secrets Were laid Out For Our enemies To See? That Seems Like An Indefensible Position. To Those Of You That Aren't Americans: Your Country Has Its Secrets Also. what If This Happened To You? This Is Reason.Pure And Simple.

by aqme28 13y ago

minimax 13y ago

So now we're suggesting the United Kingdom in 2013 is like Nazi Germany in 1933? Snowden-era Hacker News has gotten completely ridiculous.

aqme28 13y ago
Godwin's law aside, how is it more ridiculous than comparing it to science fiction?
enraged_camel 13y ago
I downvoted you for your mid-brow dismissal of the parent comment. Yes, there are parallels between UK in 2013 and Nazi Germany in 1933. Scary parallels. People who know their history understand that authoritarianism and fascism tend to take hold within a relatively short amount of time. In Germany for example, the Nazi party was formed in 1920, came to power in 1925 and within a decade it was implementing racist and nationalist policies all over the country. We all know what that led to.
malandrew 13y ago
Tell us what about that excerpt doesn't precisely describe what has been occurring in the US? No one said we're going to become Nazi Germany, but Nazi Germany also didn't appear out of thin air. There were a series of actions and evolution at the state level that eventually provided the necessary preconditions for Nazi Germany to exist. I'm sure that what ended up being Nazi Germany was one of several path that Germany could have taken given those necessary preconditions that permitted its existence. We don't know what those other paths are, one of those paths could be where we end up instead. What is known, is that this ever widening gap permits individuals, possibly several acting in concert and possibly in the belief that they are doing the right thing to exert undue influence upon the political decisions of the country for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many. The two wars we have become embroiled in unnecessarily are prime examples of such acts. We probably won't become Nazi Germany. But there is nothing going on that suggests that we won't become something that is a democracy or republic only in name, and that the will of the people and the rights of individuals simply become inconsequential. I personally have no reason to believe that we will become Nazi Germany, but I have every reason to believe that we are becoming a nation that no longer protects my rights and the rights of my fellow citizens and that we are becoming a nation that protects the self interest of the few at the expense of the self interest of the many... us.
- madaxe 13y ago
  No no, you see, the Germans were EVIL and were knowingly doing terrible things because they enjoyed them. Hitler was drinking the blood of children while the wehrmacht paraded guns around going "BLITZKREIG! BLITZKREIG!", and everyone supped from the skulls of slaves on a daily basis. Sadly, this was the vision promulgated by western propaganda, as the notion that a civilised group of people could end up where Germany ended up was unconscionable, and incomprehensible to most - and this visage is still stuck in the mind of most as "how NAZIsm happened", rather than the very slippery, very real slope they found themselves tumbling down.
  - minimax 13y ago
    Go back to Reddit.
jahewson 13y ago
That would be the same United Kingdom that now has posters on busses in London telling illegal immigrants to go home? The one with the opt-out web-filter to stop "terrorists" and "paedophiles" who can't Google "proxy"? The one where failing to turn your encryption key over to the police will land you in jail? The one where teenagers are arrested for obvious jokes on Twitter? That United Kingdom?
kbenson 13y ago
The Nazis have been given this special place in history, in discussions, in almost all aspects they've been examined, such that they are seen as the extreme end of the spectrum in almost all cases, brutality, efficiency, deadliness, zealousness, etc. Propaganda is good for motivating people, it's not good for making rational, informed decisions (indeed, it's point is to bypass rational decision making by applying to emotional cues). The truth is, they were an entire country of people, with varying and diverse opinions on everything. The fact that we elevate them to this position does not make us less likely to follow their path, by viewing them as so distinct from us, it makes us more likely. There's a little Nazi in all of us, and the sooner we come to terms with that, the better we'll be at noticing and taming it.
zalfak 13y ago
the Number Of People supporting Snowden On This Site Just Makes Me Sick. He Is A Traitor To His Country and Should Be Treated As Such. To Those Of You Reading This That Are American: Do You Honestly Feel Our Country Is Better Off Now Than Before Our State Secrets Were laid Out For Our enemies To See? That Seems Like An Indefensible Position. To Those Of You That Aren't Americans: Your Country Has Its Secrets Also. what If This Happened To You? This Is Reason.Pure And Simple.