6 ms·

We're not in 1984. We're not in Brave New World. We're not even in Zamyatin's We. We're in bloody Brazil. INTERVIEWER

by madaxe 13y ago

We're not in 1984. We're not in Brave New World. We're not even in Zamyatin's We. We're in bloody Brazil. INTERVIEWER Deputy minister, what do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? HELPMANN Bad sportsmanship. A ruthless minority of people seems to have forgotten certain good old fashioned virtues. They just can't stand seeing the other fellow win. If these people would just play the game, instead of standing on the touch line heckling INTERVIEWER In fact, killing people HELPMANN In fact, killing people they'd get a lot more out of life. We PULL AWAY from the shop to concentrate on the shoppers. Helpmann's voice carries over the rest of the scene. INTERVIEWER Mr. Helpmann, what would you say to those critics who maintain that the Ministry Of Information has become too large and unwieldy... ? HELPMANN David... in a free society information is the name of the game. You can't win the game if you're a man short.

ekianjo 13y ago
I was re-watching Brazil the other day and this was exactly what came to mind. We are not in 1984. Terry Gilliam's vision is terrific, and captures with precision how someone working for the NSA (even though it's not called like that in the movie) thinking he is working for Good actually discovers the impact of his actions on real people's lives. It's frightening how close we are to that place.
w_t_payne 13y ago
Ducts. We need more ducts.
- SimHacker 13y ago
  The internet is a series of round ducts, called tubes. Pneumatic tubes, I have heard.
  - w_t_payne 13y ago
    That must be what all the ducts in the movie were!
fudyy 13y ago
Not sure this is fair. The government isn't crazy like Deputy Minister Helpmann in Brazil. It really is trying to do its job. Imagine if every American football coach had to announce his play to the other team. What purpose would there be in it? So, there needs to be a system in place that helps keep secrets. But, the question is how should those that expose secrets be dealt with? No one wants to deal with those exposing state secrets because they are doing it to no one in particular, and aren't being seen as actively trying to help terrorists. That is the problem and that is the reason we are comparing things to the movie Brazil here. Growing up in the U.S., we were all taught the history of our country, which included Benedict Arnold. But very few see a parallel to Benedict Arnold in Snowden. They cannot see how someone whose main claim to fame in the press has been, "They are watching you!" has exposed state secrets. Neither do they think Julian Assange is Benedict Arnold. Julian is just posed as a well-meaning but much misled Australian hacker that probably got framed in a rape case and is on the run, like a modern day Frank Abagnale, but with state secrets instead of fake checks. The fact is, our governments need respect in order to keep secrets better, but prosecuting and hunting down these people is not the answer, neither are other "control" techniques. They just need better security. If they had better security, I for one would respect the fact that they said, "Oops! I guess I left the playbook in front of the press tent. I guess I should keep it on my person at all times."
- anentropic 13y ago
  The Benedict Arnold comparison is absurd and the football analogy is very weak. There is no 'other team' and the coach is paranoid. He keeps the playbook secret from his own team, suspecting any one of them may be playing for the other side, which does not exist. No games are scheduled anyway, but still he insists on spying on them and recording all the details of their private lives in his secret playbook. One day one of the team finds the playbook and is horrified at what their coach has been doing behind their backs... etc etc
  - narcissus 13y ago
    I agree that the football analogy is weak. As an outsider looking in, it seems as though the 'secret plays' are secret just because that's the way it's become... not because it's the only way. I mean, you just have to look at pretty much every other team sport out there: none of those have secret playbooks. The team is smart enough to work together to determine the best course of action, sometimes taking the advantage, sometimes responding to the loss of that advantage. So what we have is one sport out of dozens that has a particular quirk, and then we use that weirdness to justify what the government is currently doing? Odd.
aqme28 13y ago
I hate to draw the comparison, but it reminds me even more of this: ""What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing. "What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it. "This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter." More: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html
- minimax 13y ago
  So now we're suggesting the United Kingdom in 2013 is like Nazi Germany in 1933? Snowden-era Hacker News has gotten completely ridiculous.
  - aqme28 13y ago
    Godwin's law aside, how is it more ridiculous than comparing it to science fiction?
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    I downvoted you for your mid-brow dismissal of the parent comment. Yes, there are parallels between UK in 2013 and Nazi Germany in 1933. Scary parallels. People who know their history understand that authoritarianism and fascism tend to take hold within a relatively short amount of time. In Germany for example, the Nazi party was formed in 1920, came to power in 1925 and within a decade it was implementing racist and nationalist policies all over the country. We all know what that led to.
hyperventilator 13y ago
Ere I am JH, the ghost in the machine.

by madaxe 13y ago

ekianjo 13y ago

I was re-watching Brazil the other day and this was exactly what came to mind. We are not in 1984. Terry Gilliam's vision is terrific, and captures with precision how someone working for the NSA (even though it's not called like that in the movie) thinking he is working for Good actually discovers the impact of his actions on real people's lives. It's frightening how close we are to that place.

w_t_payne 13y ago

Ducts. We need more ducts.

SimHacker 13y ago
The internet is a series of round ducts, called tubes. Pneumatic tubes, I have heard.
- w_t_payne 13y ago
  That must be what all the ducts in the movie were!

fudyy 13y ago

Not sure this is fair. The government isn't crazy like Deputy Minister Helpmann in Brazil. It really is trying to do its job. Imagine if every American football coach had to announce his play to the other team. What purpose would there be in it? So, there needs to be a system in place that helps keep secrets. But, the question is how should those that expose secrets be dealt with? No one wants to deal with those exposing state secrets because they are doing it to no one in particular, and aren't being seen as actively trying to help terrorists. That is the problem and that is the reason we are comparing things to the movie Brazil here. Growing up in the U.S., we were all taught the history of our country, which included Benedict Arnold. But very few see a parallel to Benedict Arnold in Snowden. They cannot see how someone whose main claim to fame in the press has been, "They are watching you!" has exposed state secrets. Neither do they think Julian Assange is Benedict Arnold. Julian is just posed as a well-meaning but much misled Australian hacker that probably got framed in a rape case and is on the run, like a modern day Frank Abagnale, but with state secrets instead of fake checks. The fact is, our governments need respect in order to keep secrets better, but prosecuting and hunting down these people is not the answer, neither are other "control" techniques. They just need better security. If they had better security, I for one would respect the fact that they said, "Oops! I guess I left the playbook in front of the press tent. I guess I should keep it on my person at all times."

anentropic 13y ago
The Benedict Arnold comparison is absurd and the football analogy is very weak. There is no 'other team' and the coach is paranoid. He keeps the playbook secret from his own team, suspecting any one of them may be playing for the other side, which does not exist. No games are scheduled anyway, but still he insists on spying on them and recording all the details of their private lives in his secret playbook. One day one of the team finds the playbook and is horrified at what their coach has been doing behind their backs... etc etc
- narcissus 13y ago
  I agree that the football analogy is weak. As an outsider looking in, it seems as though the 'secret plays' are secret just because that's the way it's become... not because it's the only way. I mean, you just have to look at pretty much every other team sport out there: none of those have secret playbooks. The team is smart enough to work together to determine the best course of action, sometimes taking the advantage, sometimes responding to the loss of that advantage. So what we have is one sport out of dozens that has a particular quirk, and then we use that weirdness to justify what the government is currently doing? Odd.

aqme28 13y ago

I hate to draw the comparison, but it reminds me even more of this: ""What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing. "What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it. "This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter." More: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

minimax 13y ago
So now we're suggesting the United Kingdom in 2013 is like Nazi Germany in 1933? Snowden-era Hacker News has gotten completely ridiculous.
- aqme28 13y ago
  Godwin's law aside, how is it more ridiculous than comparing it to science fiction?
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  I downvoted you for your mid-brow dismissal of the parent comment. Yes, there are parallels between UK in 2013 and Nazi Germany in 1933. Scary parallels. People who know their history understand that authoritarianism and fascism tend to take hold within a relatively short amount of time. In Germany for example, the Nazi party was formed in 1920, came to power in 1925 and within a decade it was implementing racist and nationalist policies all over the country. We all know what that led to.

hyperventilator 13y ago

Ere I am JH, the ghost in the machine.