5 ms·

Really? I'm certain they hate the notion of credit too which has long been attributed to their post-war mindset. Are other European notions similarly disposed

Really? I'm certain they hate the notion of credit too which has long been attributed to their post-war mindset. Are other European notions similarly disposed towards credit (and thus credit cards), too?

skrause 13y ago
Credit card usage isn't low here because Germans hate credit, it's because we simply have had better alternatives for ages. Instead of credit cards people use Electronic cash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cash) in stores which is much cheaper for merchants, so they often don't even accept credit cards because of the fees. Online payments and payments of bills are usually done through direct withdrawals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_debit#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_debit#Germany) with easy chargebacks.
- qznc 13y ago
  I always wondered why the US is so opposed to direct debit? It is so much easier and safer than credit cards or sending cheques by mail. The problem is that the rest of the world standardizes on credit cards. You cannot book a hotel or a conference without it. This is probably the only reason, why germans adopt credit cards: International travel.
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    You cannot book a hotel without a credit card? That's just incorrect.
    - raverbashing 13y ago
      Technically, you can. In practice, it's a different story. The reservation won't be guaranteed, that is, you have to be there before a certain hour for your guarantee to work. After that, if a customer walked in and asked for a room, sorry. Now try renting a car in the US without a credit card.
- raverbashing 13y ago
  " it's because we simply have had better alternatives for ages. Instead of credit cards people use Electronic cash" Better? It's a debit card. Chip and Pin? Several other countries have it. It may have smaller fees, still, some merchands only take it from a certain value.
  - skrause 13y ago
    What's the problem with debit cards? I like to have the money for all purchases withdrawn from my account as soon as possible, it gives me a nice overview of how much I actually have.
    - raverbashing 13y ago
      Did I say there's something wrong? I like Debit Cards as well.
    - lutusp 13y ago
      The advantage of using a credit card is that you get a 30-day free loan, paid for by people who can't keep up with their credit card payments. If you feel guilty about being on the winning side of today's predatory, exploitative credit card system, by all means use a debit card instead. And to those who constantly run a balance on their credit cards and never seem to get them paid off, you can always prove your intelligence by cutting the cards into little pieces and flushing them down the toilet. More here: http://arachnoid.com/wrong/#Economics http://arachnoid.com/wrong/#Economics
      - skrause 13y ago
        In times of basically zero interest a 30-day free loan doesn't sound like a very convincing argument since I have to keep the money in an easily accessible account anyway to pay the bill at the end of the month.
        lutusp 13y ago
        > In times of basically zero interest a 30-day free loan doesn't sound like a very convincing argument ... Look at it this way -- for 30 days, you have access to funds that the poor person doesn't. Interest or not, you have more financial latitude. Also, people who automatically and fully pay off their cards every month tend also to be the sort of people who have most of their money in investments that yield reasonable interest returns (like equities), not zero-interest bank accounts. So for them, the saved money is kept in a worthwhile investment until the moment it's needed. I personally think the difference between the financial condition of the rich and poor, and the choices each make, is terrible and unjust. But after I've empathized with the poor, I know which group I want to belong to.
- legulere 13y ago
  Also wire transfers, which are also often used for online payment cost essentially nothing.
mbesto 13y ago
In general, yes. My friends in the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium and Switzerland all notoriously shy away from CC. Interestingly my friend in Switzerland couldn't finance his car purchase. You either have to lease or buy the car in cash. Yes, full cash payment. For an American, that's baffling...our whole car industry is based off of credit (and perhaps quite indirectly related to it's demise.)
sveme 13y ago
There is actually a major difference between the majority of German credit cards and, e.g., US credit cards, which fits nicely into your argument: Most German credit cards are "not-revolving",i.e., at the end of the month the amount you spent with your credit card will be withdrawn automatically from your bank account. It is therefore much more like a debit card in concept than a credit card. The only reason why credit cards are more used nowadays in Germany is because of their use in international online shopping (and when renting a car in the US, which is the reason why I had to get one).

skrause 13y ago

Credit card usage isn't low here because Germans hate credit, it's because we simply have had better alternatives for ages. Instead of credit cards people use Electronic cash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cash) in stores which is much cheaper for merchants, so they often don't even accept credit cards because of the fees. Online payments and payments of bills are usually done through direct withdrawals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_debit#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_debit#Germany) with easy chargebacks.

qznc 13y ago
I always wondered why the US is so opposed to direct debit? It is so much easier and safer than credit cards or sending cheques by mail. The problem is that the rest of the world standardizes on credit cards. You cannot book a hotel or a conference without it. This is probably the only reason, why germans adopt credit cards: International travel.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  You cannot book a hotel without a credit card? That's just incorrect.
  - raverbashing 13y ago
    Technically, you can. In practice, it's a different story. The reservation won't be guaranteed, that is, you have to be there before a certain hour for your guarantee to work. After that, if a customer walked in and asked for a room, sorry. Now try renting a car in the US without a credit card.
raverbashing 13y ago
" it's because we simply have had better alternatives for ages. Instead of credit cards people use Electronic cash" Better? It's a debit card. Chip and Pin? Several other countries have it. It may have smaller fees, still, some merchands only take it from a certain value.
- skrause 13y ago
  What's the problem with debit cards? I like to have the money for all purchases withdrawn from my account as soon as possible, it gives me a nice overview of how much I actually have.
  - raverbashing 13y ago
    Did I say there's something wrong? I like Debit Cards as well.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    The advantage of using a credit card is that you get a 30-day free loan, paid for by people who can't keep up with their credit card payments. If you feel guilty about being on the winning side of today's predatory, exploitative credit card system, by all means use a debit card instead. And to those who constantly run a balance on their credit cards and never seem to get them paid off, you can always prove your intelligence by cutting the cards into little pieces and flushing them down the toilet. More here: http://arachnoid.com/wrong/#Economics http://arachnoid.com/wrong/#Economics
    - skrause 13y ago
      In times of basically zero interest a 30-day free loan doesn't sound like a very convincing argument since I have to keep the money in an easily accessible account anyway to pay the bill at the end of the month.
      - lutusp 13y ago
        > In times of basically zero interest a 30-day free loan doesn't sound like a very convincing argument ... Look at it this way -- for 30 days, you have access to funds that the poor person doesn't. Interest or not, you have more financial latitude. Also, people who automatically and fully pay off their cards every month tend also to be the sort of people who have most of their money in investments that yield reasonable interest returns (like equities), not zero-interest bank accounts. So for them, the saved money is kept in a worthwhile investment until the moment it's needed. I personally think the difference between the financial condition of the rich and poor, and the choices each make, is terrible and unjust. But after I've empathized with the poor, I know which group I want to belong to.
legulere 13y ago
Also wire transfers, which are also often used for online payment cost essentially nothing.

mbesto 13y ago

In general, yes. My friends in the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium and Switzerland all notoriously shy away from CC. Interestingly my friend in Switzerland couldn't finance his car purchase. You either have to lease or buy the car in cash. Yes, full cash payment. For an American, that's baffling...our whole car industry is based off of credit (and perhaps quite indirectly related to it's demise.)

sveme 13y ago

There is actually a major difference between the majority of German credit cards and, e.g., US credit cards, which fits nicely into your argument: Most German credit cards are "not-revolving",i.e., at the end of the month the amount you spent with your credit card will be withdrawn automatically from your bank account. It is therefore much more like a debit card in concept than a credit card. The only reason why credit cards are more used nowadays in Germany is because of their use in international online shopping (and when renting a car in the US, which is the reason why I had to get one).