7 ms·

I'm in an office in Berlin as I type this. Every person around me has a credit card. Every German I personally know, including my destitute student friends, hav

by donw 13y ago

I'm in an office in Berlin as I type this. Every person around me has a credit card. Every German I personally know, including my destitute student friends, have credit cards. It's not like online retail isn't a huge business here, and credit cards are the easiest payment method available, due to the incredibly restrictive nature of German banks. A lot of startups here have been screaming for this day.

k__ 13y ago
I have one, too. The younger generation is okay with this, but most older people prefere "real" money :\
- Semaphor 13y ago
  Probably a north/south difference.
- m_st 13y ago
  It's the same in Switzerland. But in the last few years the older people caught up quite a bit and in a few years it won't be an issue anymore.
qznc 13y ago
Direct debit is just as easy. Two numbers to enter.
- pc 13y ago
  The problem is that you can't synchronously process the payment, which makes the API (and user experience generally) much more complicated.
  - chrisboesing 13y ago
    Do you plan on supporting direct debit in the future or is your focus on expanding to more countries before adding more payment options?
    - pc 13y ago
      We're thinking about it, but it's not clear to us that we can create an abstraction that fits nicely with everything else. I'm not sure that the additional complexity would be worth it. Definitely open to any suggestions.
  - Atropos 13y ago
    There is one German company offering a solution (https://www.sofort.com/eng-DE/ https://www.sofort.com/eng-DE/), but as far as I know, it's still unclear if their users don't break their own banks' ToS-
    - collision 13y ago
      If you're using Sofort, then there's an off-site redirect involved and it's no longer as simple as entering two numbers.
  - mhd 13y ago
    In what way? As a user, you get your order confirmation and while it might take a bit longer for the money to arrive, that's really not even noticeable for most e-commerce transactions. I much prefer debit, as it makes it much easier for me to get my money back if the seller doesn't deliver.
    - Silhouette 13y ago
      As a user, you get your order confirmation and while it might take a bit longer for the money to arrive Setting up Direct Debits, at least the UK version, it's not "a bit longer" for your money to arrive, it's confirmation several days later vs. within seconds. For ongoing payments like subscriptions this probably isn't a huge deal, but for one-off payments it makes less sense. I much prefer debit, as it makes it much easier for me to get my money back if the seller doesn't deliver. Unfortunately from the seller's point of view, that also means it's much easier for someone to claim to be a customer, get hold of your e-book/music/software/whatever, and then reverse the payment. There are procedures for disputing chargebacks on credit cards, but with Direct Debit the guarantee is basically that banks will reverse first and ask questions later, and the time limits for doing so are much longer (if there are any at all). Again, this is less of a problem for ongoing payments for utility bills or something like SaaS where you can just cut off access if they stop paying, but for things like one-time downloads it's a huge risk for the merchant.
      - mhd 13y ago
        I can't remember ever having to wait for an order to be delivered in Germany while they were waiting for the debit to arrive. As opposed to a money transfer that I have to initiate myself. If I remember correctly, the e-commerce systems can check if the account is valid, and as most have overdraft and thus the responsibility for getting the money is transferred to the client's credit institute, there's little risk. Yes, for downloads this can be a hassle, but it's not like this is the only payment option used by people, so it's not a big bother if direct debit isn't offered in this case or you're going through an intermediate solution like e.g. paypal. I think most people would prefer alternative solutions for one-time payments anyway, i.e. if they don't think they'll be a regular customer. Not sure how the recent SEPA regulations will affect this...
- raverbashing 13y ago
  I prefer not handling my bank account details for anything to anyone A credit card can be cancelled and purchases disputed.
raverbashing 13y ago
Too bad most stores have never heard about this "credit card thing", some will grudgingly accept EC (the german debit card)
rbehrends 13y ago
Credit card ownership in Germany was around 33% in 2011 [1]. The problem that credit cards have in Germany is that they have to compete with ELV (and soon SEPA Direct Debit, I suspect), which from a consumer's perspective (though not from a seller's) is the superior payment system (ease of chargebacks, plus the up to 150 Euro that you may have to eat if your credit card details are stolen, plus the historical tendency of the courts to side with banks over consumers in the case of card theft [2]). [1] http://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/EN/Downloads/Publications/Bulletins_and_surveys/payment_behaviour_in_germany_in_2011.pdf http://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/EN/Downloads/Publications... [2] The law has recently been changed to no longer make a prima facie assumption that you mishandled your PIN if your card was used fraudulently, but you may still have a lot of hassle to go through.

by donw 13y ago

k__ 13y ago

I have one, too. The younger generation is okay with this, but most older people prefere "real" money :\

Semaphor 13y ago
Probably a north/south difference.
m_st 13y ago
It's the same in Switzerland. But in the last few years the older people caught up quite a bit and in a few years it won't be an issue anymore.

qznc 13y ago

Direct debit is just as easy. Two numbers to enter.

pc 13y ago
The problem is that you can't synchronously process the payment, which makes the API (and user experience generally) much more complicated.
- chrisboesing 13y ago
  Do you plan on supporting direct debit in the future or is your focus on expanding to more countries before adding more payment options?
  - pc 13y ago
    We're thinking about it, but it's not clear to us that we can create an abstraction that fits nicely with everything else. I'm not sure that the additional complexity would be worth it. Definitely open to any suggestions.
- Atropos 13y ago
  There is one German company offering a solution (https://www.sofort.com/eng-DE/ https://www.sofort.com/eng-DE/), but as far as I know, it's still unclear if their users don't break their own banks' ToS-
  - collision 13y ago
    If you're using Sofort, then there's an off-site redirect involved and it's no longer as simple as entering two numbers.
- mhd 13y ago
  In what way? As a user, you get your order confirmation and while it might take a bit longer for the money to arrive, that's really not even noticeable for most e-commerce transactions. I much prefer debit, as it makes it much easier for me to get my money back if the seller doesn't deliver.
  - Silhouette 13y ago
    As a user, you get your order confirmation and while it might take a bit longer for the money to arrive Setting up Direct Debits, at least the UK version, it's not "a bit longer" for your money to arrive, it's confirmation several days later vs. within seconds. For ongoing payments like subscriptions this probably isn't a huge deal, but for one-off payments it makes less sense. I much prefer debit, as it makes it much easier for me to get my money back if the seller doesn't deliver. Unfortunately from the seller's point of view, that also means it's much easier for someone to claim to be a customer, get hold of your e-book/music/software/whatever, and then reverse the payment. There are procedures for disputing chargebacks on credit cards, but with Direct Debit the guarantee is basically that banks will reverse first and ask questions later, and the time limits for doing so are much longer (if there are any at all). Again, this is less of a problem for ongoing payments for utility bills or something like SaaS where you can just cut off access if they stop paying, but for things like one-time downloads it's a huge risk for the merchant.
    - mhd 13y ago
      I can't remember ever having to wait for an order to be delivered in Germany while they were waiting for the debit to arrive. As opposed to a money transfer that I have to initiate myself. If I remember correctly, the e-commerce systems can check if the account is valid, and as most have overdraft and thus the responsibility for getting the money is transferred to the client's credit institute, there's little risk. Yes, for downloads this can be a hassle, but it's not like this is the only payment option used by people, so it's not a big bother if direct debit isn't offered in this case or you're going through an intermediate solution like e.g. paypal. I think most people would prefer alternative solutions for one-time payments anyway, i.e. if they don't think they'll be a regular customer. Not sure how the recent SEPA regulations will affect this...
raverbashing 13y ago
I prefer not handling my bank account details for anything to anyone A credit card can be cancelled and purchases disputed.

raverbashing 13y ago

Too bad most stores have never heard about this "credit card thing", some will grudgingly accept EC (the german debit card)

rbehrends 13y ago

Credit card ownership in Germany was around 33% in 2011 [1]. The problem that credit cards have in Germany is that they have to compete with ELV (and soon SEPA Direct Debit, I suspect), which from a consumer's perspective (though not from a seller's) is the superior payment system (ease of chargebacks, plus the up to 150 Euro that you may have to eat if your credit card details are stolen, plus the historical tendency of the courts to side with banks over consumers in the case of card theft [2]). [1] http://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/EN/Downloads/Publications/Bulletins_and_surveys/payment_behaviour_in_germany_in_2011.pdf http://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/EN/Downloads/Publications... [2] The law has recently been changed to no longer make a prima facie assumption that you mishandled your PIN if your card was used fraudulently, but you may still have a lot of hassle to go through.