6 ms·

I'm thinking this article is a little exaggerated. I applied to, and got into an Ivy, but had no sort of preparation at all. I was suspended over 20 times throu

I'm thinking this article is a little exaggerated. I applied to, and got into an Ivy, but had no sort of preparation at all. I was suspended over 20 times throughout my schooling, had 0 hours of community service, didn't find out that the SATs existed until my senior year, and my reference letters were from no-name teachers. Yes, some of the things described (working at a neuroscience lab) were true, but they were entirely my initiatives. More importantly, even at school, I never saw anyone (limited scope, I'm sure) with this kind of description. All my friends seemed passionate about what they were interested in, and the majority were from middle-upper class families. While I'm sure there are distinct cases of this sort of coddling, I would caution that this is likely more the exception than the rule.

thedood0000 13y ago
That's why you got in.
Trey-Jackson 13y ago
Of course it's the exception. It's a story of the 1% - who else has an extra $7K to spend on their kid's preparation for college? It's as relevant to daily life as Honey Boo Boo or Jersey Shore.
- diminoten 13y ago
  More than 1% of the kids at Ivys are from the 1%, or at least that's what conventional wisdom is, and that may or may not make sense. The posted article is attempting to explain that it's through a fault in the system where those with money can use that money as a substitute for intellect or drive to distinguish their children. I have no clue if it's right, but it's more valuable to daily life of those applying to Ivys than Honey Boo Boo or Jersey Shore would be.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
walshemj 13y ago
This is about the very wealthy types (members of the buller) whos kids are genuinely puzzled that you dont have a castle in Ireland or a summer home in the Hamptons.
cma 13y ago
Many people at elite schools get phony doctor's notes for unlimited time on the tests. Colleges are notified when a student had unlimited time, but since the US News report college rankings don't take it negatively, neither do they (if they even legally could). http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=1787712&page=1 http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=1787712&page=1 "At the elite Wayland High school outside Boston, the number of students receiving special accommodations is more than 12 percent, more than six times the estimated national average of high school students with learning disabilities. Wayland guidance counselor Norma Greenberg said that it's not that difficult for wealthy, well-connected students to get the diagnoses they want." http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2006/05/flag_on_the_field.html http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_exa... "Most of these students' diagnoses are presumably genuine. But in places like Greenwich, Conn., and certain zip codes of New York City and Los Angeles, the percentage of untimed test-taking is said to be close to 50 percent"
- jlgreco 13y ago
  I never really go the appeal of unlimited time on tests, unless you actually have a diagnosis that requires it. I saw it around me when I was in university but I am unconvinced that it actually helped any 'normal' student. I mean, what are you going to do with unlimited time anyway? Sure, some tests are designed to be too long for the allotted time, but most aren't. If you need more time on a test that is designed for the normal amount of time, what is going on? Are you deriving formulas that you neglected to memorize? Possible I suppose, but how many students are clever enough to do that correctly on a test when needed but don't just know the material in the first place? Extra test time as an unfair advantage makes even less sense to me in subjects other than mathematics and physics. What are you going to do, derive an answer to "Who were Dizzy Gillespie's primary influences?"? If it wasn't mathematics or physics, I was always fucked if I didn't know the answer within half a minute or so of reading the question. Even with mathematics or physics, if I was spending much time at all deriving things, it was generally a sure sign that I had failed to prepare and was fucked regardless. Here is my hypothesis: Much of the elevated diagnosis rates at upper-class schools reflects the fact that people with more money are more likely to acquire diagnosis for non-life threatening ailments their children have. The rest of the elevated diagnosis rates is probably just rich people throwing money at the wall and seeing what sticks. I doubt it gives them an advantage, but they have the money so it can't hurt to try.
jgoldsmith 13y ago
I'd really like to hear about this story from a college admissions officer's point of view. While I'm sure that they can tell the difference between an application from one of these tutors and a "genuine" one like yours, I'm not quite sure I understand why they put up with it in that case.
- RougeFemme 13y ago
  Remember the building named after the applicant's family? And there are contributions to the endowment. . .
ender7 13y ago
I think you're right, but with two caveats. First, students with shockingly blue blood tend to keep company with other upper-crusters, frequently in exclusive fraternities or sororities that seek to carve out new depths of exclusivity in an already exclusive environment. This makes them less obviously evident than people expect. Second, I would caution that you, too, are more likely the exception to the rule. The unfortunate fact is that most kids who get into prestigious schools have had the benefit of extensive preparation while the students who lack this preparation have very poor chances. Sometimes you can outwit the test with a massive intellect or a knack for test-taking, but those sometimes are seldom. I salute your seldomness, although a bit sadly. :)
- stcredzero 13y ago
  > First, students with shockingly blue blood tend to keep company with other upper-crusters, frequently in exclusive fraternities or sororities that seek to carve out new depths of exclusivity From what I have seen: true. (Dartmouth alum here.) Much of the benefit of going to an Ivy League school is the chance to socialize with and develop interpersonal relationships with "other upper-custers." (Not something I did.)
  - ISL 13y ago
    Getting access to top-notch professors and research experiences are important too. (networking with smart people is of perhaps maximal importance).
  - larrys 13y ago
    Having attended both a private high school as well as an Ivy League college (would rather not say which one) one of the things you gain is also exposure to people from families that are tremendously committed to education and were raised with certain values. Not that that doesn't exist in other schools but the difference in attitude is striking at those types of schools at least when I attended and from my observation. Even the kids at the private high school that were on scholarship and came from poor families were not the same as the kids from poor families at the public high school (once again, as a group individual kids of course could vary). Add: I came from a middle class family.
scott_s 13y ago
Don't confuse her sample with your sample. Your sample are the students at an elite school. Her sample are the children of wealthy Manhattan parents trying to get into an elite school.
auctiontheory 13y ago
If this was recent, and you are white/Asian and in a major state, you must be G*dlike smart. I salute you.
- lajames 13y ago
  So is he less G*dlike smart if he's not white or Asian or is from a small state?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - icegreentea 13y ago
    He may or may not be. I think auctiontheory was trying to make a comment on Ivy League's quota systems.
  - auctiontheory 13y ago
    There are G*dlike smart people of every skin color, and in every state. But if you're Asian applying from Saratoga, CA, or Jewish from NY, NY, getting in to an elite school is a WHOLE lot harder (based on equivalent grades and scores) than if you are an "underrepresented minority," or you're applying from Wyoming or Alaska or someplace like that. BTW, your question draws a conclusion which does not logically follow from my previous post.
RougeFemme 13y ago
I didn't get the impression that the author was implying this was the norm; rather, that it was prevalent among rich (vs. middle-upper class) helicopter parents.
moocowduckquack 13y ago
I didn't think that this was an article about what it takes to get into an Ivy as much as how some people doom their kids.
prostoalex 13y ago
This is a pitch of author's book. WSJ has a somewhat meatier excerpt than 'rich people pay for essays omg' http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324108204579024823824933690.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732410820457902...
mathattack 13y ago
It is absolutely not exaggerated. In NYC there are: - Pre-school admissions counselors for 2 year olds. (This is one of many -> http://www.privateschooladvisors.com/ http://www.privateschooladvisors.com/) - $500 dollar an hour services that can find tutors who got an A with the specific teacher and specific class that your child is struggling in. - 20+% of the kids qualify at 97th percentile for public gifted and talented, yet only a third pass state exams. http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/schoolbook/2013/aug/07/fewer-one-third-new-york-city-students-pass-state-tests/ http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/schoolbook/2013/aug/07/fewer-one-t... This contributes to very fragile rich kids who get shell shocked in college. Of course there are services for that too. (http://fulshearranchacademy.com/blog/college-for-emotionally-fragile-young-adults/ http://fulshearranchacademy.com/blog/college-for-emotionally...) It also means kids very prepped for entrance exams but little else.
- Spooky23 13y ago
  Fyi. The 20% pass rate was a result of implementing a test that measured progress against a curriculum that wasn't taught.
  - mathattack 13y ago
    Yes, though it's a low 30s %. (The school in my neighborhood was low teens %) The 20% is kids passing the 97th percentile of past test takers. And this is very much an exam that is taught to. That's the real point - that there's a lot of test prep, and look what happens when you don't prep for it.
    - Spooky23 13y ago
      I don't know if I agree with that, after looking at the sample questions. http://www.engageny.org/resource/new-york-state-common-core-sample-questions http://www.engageny.org/resource/new-york-state-common-core-... These are different types of questions that require you to think more than the tests that I took in 5th to 8th grade. IMO, the biggest issue here is that its a hard test. Tests have been very easy for the last couple of decades. When I was in high school in the 90s, our teachers in 10th grade gave us a 1969 nys regents exam for math 2 and earth science as a practice exercise. They were an order of magnitude more difficult that the actual exams given in 1994/1995. The biggest problem here is that they are making everyone take the tests. Back in ye olden days, the college prep kids took the hard stuff only. You're not going to get a lot of good results in tests that require abstract thinking in poor districts -- the parents are idiots and let the kids stay out too late, don't enforce homework rules, etc.

thedood0000 13y ago

That's why you got in.

Trey-Jackson 13y ago

Of course it's the exception. It's a story of the 1% - who else has an extra $7K to spend on their kid's preparation for college? It's as relevant to daily life as Honey Boo Boo or Jersey Shore.

diminoten 13y ago
More than 1% of the kids at Ivys are from the 1%, or at least that's what conventional wisdom is, and that may or may not make sense. The posted article is attempting to explain that it's through a fault in the system where those with money can use that money as a substitute for intellect or drive to distinguish their children. I have no clue if it's right, but it's more valuable to daily life of those applying to Ivys than Honey Boo Boo or Jersey Shore would be.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

walshemj 13y ago

This is about the very wealthy types (members of the buller) whos kids are genuinely puzzled that you dont have a castle in Ireland or a summer home in the Hamptons.

cma 13y ago

Many people at elite schools get phony doctor's notes for unlimited time on the tests. Colleges are notified when a student had unlimited time, but since the US News report college rankings don't take it negatively, neither do they (if they even legally could). http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=1787712&page=1 http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=1787712&page=1 "At the elite Wayland High school outside Boston, the number of students receiving special accommodations is more than 12 percent, more than six times the estimated national average of high school students with learning disabilities. Wayland guidance counselor Norma Greenberg said that it's not that difficult for wealthy, well-connected students to get the diagnoses they want." http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2006/05/flag_on_the_field.html http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_exa... "Most of these students' diagnoses are presumably genuine. But in places like Greenwich, Conn., and certain zip codes of New York City and Los Angeles, the percentage of untimed test-taking is said to be close to 50 percent"

jlgreco 13y ago
I never really go the appeal of unlimited time on tests, unless you actually have a diagnosis that requires it. I saw it around me when I was in university but I am unconvinced that it actually helped any 'normal' student. I mean, what are you going to do with unlimited time anyway? Sure, some tests are designed to be too long for the allotted time, but most aren't. If you need more time on a test that is designed for the normal amount of time, what is going on? Are you deriving formulas that you neglected to memorize? Possible I suppose, but how many students are clever enough to do that correctly on a test when needed but don't just know the material in the first place? Extra test time as an unfair advantage makes even less sense to me in subjects other than mathematics and physics. What are you going to do, derive an answer to "Who were Dizzy Gillespie's primary influences?"? If it wasn't mathematics or physics, I was always fucked if I didn't know the answer within half a minute or so of reading the question. Even with mathematics or physics, if I was spending much time at all deriving things, it was generally a sure sign that I had failed to prepare and was fucked regardless. Here is my hypothesis: Much of the elevated diagnosis rates at upper-class schools reflects the fact that people with more money are more likely to acquire diagnosis for non-life threatening ailments their children have. The rest of the elevated diagnosis rates is probably just rich people throwing money at the wall and seeing what sticks. I doubt it gives them an advantage, but they have the money so it can't hurt to try.

jgoldsmith 13y ago

I'd really like to hear about this story from a college admissions officer's point of view. While I'm sure that they can tell the difference between an application from one of these tutors and a "genuine" one like yours, I'm not quite sure I understand why they put up with it in that case.

RougeFemme 13y ago
Remember the building named after the applicant's family? And there are contributions to the endowment. . .

ender7 13y ago

I think you're right, but with two caveats. First, students with shockingly blue blood tend to keep company with other upper-crusters, frequently in exclusive fraternities or sororities that seek to carve out new depths of exclusivity in an already exclusive environment. This makes them less obviously evident than people expect. Second, I would caution that you, too, are more likely the exception to the rule. The unfortunate fact is that most kids who get into prestigious schools have had the benefit of extensive preparation while the students who lack this preparation have very poor chances. Sometimes you can outwit the test with a massive intellect or a knack for test-taking, but those sometimes are seldom. I salute your seldomness, although a bit sadly. :)

stcredzero 13y ago
> First, students with shockingly blue blood tend to keep company with other upper-crusters, frequently in exclusive fraternities or sororities that seek to carve out new depths of exclusivity From what I have seen: true. (Dartmouth alum here.) Much of the benefit of going to an Ivy League school is the chance to socialize with and develop interpersonal relationships with "other upper-custers." (Not something I did.)
- ISL 13y ago
  Getting access to top-notch professors and research experiences are important too. (networking with smart people is of perhaps maximal importance).
- larrys 13y ago
  Having attended both a private high school as well as an Ivy League college (would rather not say which one) one of the things you gain is also exposure to people from families that are tremendously committed to education and were raised with certain values. Not that that doesn't exist in other schools but the difference in attitude is striking at those types of schools at least when I attended and from my observation. Even the kids at the private high school that were on scholarship and came from poor families were not the same as the kids from poor families at the public high school (once again, as a group individual kids of course could vary). Add: I came from a middle class family.

scott_s 13y ago

Don't confuse her sample with your sample. Your sample are the students at an elite school. Her sample are the children of wealthy Manhattan parents trying to get into an elite school.

auctiontheory 13y ago

If this was recent, and you are white/Asian and in a major state, you must be G*dlike smart. I salute you.

lajames 13y ago
So is he less G*dlike smart if he's not white or Asian or is from a small state?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- icegreentea 13y ago
  He may or may not be. I think auctiontheory was trying to make a comment on Ivy League's quota systems.
- auctiontheory 13y ago
  There are G*dlike smart people of every skin color, and in every state. But if you're Asian applying from Saratoga, CA, or Jewish from NY, NY, getting in to an elite school is a WHOLE lot harder (based on equivalent grades and scores) than if you are an "underrepresented minority," or you're applying from Wyoming or Alaska or someplace like that. BTW, your question draws a conclusion which does not logically follow from my previous post.

RougeFemme 13y ago

I didn't get the impression that the author was implying this was the norm; rather, that it was prevalent among rich (vs. middle-upper class) helicopter parents.

moocowduckquack 13y ago

I didn't think that this was an article about what it takes to get into an Ivy as much as how some people doom their kids.

prostoalex 13y ago

This is a pitch of author's book. WSJ has a somewhat meatier excerpt than 'rich people pay for essays omg' http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324108204579024823824933690.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732410820457902...

mathattack 13y ago

It is absolutely not exaggerated. In NYC there are: - Pre-school admissions counselors for 2 year olds. (This is one of many -> http://www.privateschooladvisors.com/ http://www.privateschooladvisors.com/) - $500 dollar an hour services that can find tutors who got an A with the specific teacher and specific class that your child is struggling in. - 20+% of the kids qualify at 97th percentile for public gifted and talented, yet only a third pass state exams. http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/schoolbook/2013/aug/07/fewer-one-third-new-york-city-students-pass-state-tests/ http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/schoolbook/2013/aug/07/fewer-one-t... This contributes to very fragile rich kids who get shell shocked in college. Of course there are services for that too. (http://fulshearranchacademy.com/blog/college-for-emotionally-fragile-young-adults/ http://fulshearranchacademy.com/blog/college-for-emotionally...) It also means kids very prepped for entrance exams but little else.

Spooky23 13y ago
Fyi. The 20% pass rate was a result of implementing a test that measured progress against a curriculum that wasn't taught.
- mathattack 13y ago
  Yes, though it's a low 30s %. (The school in my neighborhood was low teens %) The 20% is kids passing the 97th percentile of past test takers. And this is very much an exam that is taught to. That's the real point - that there's a lot of test prep, and look what happens when you don't prep for it.
  - Spooky23 13y ago
    I don't know if I agree with that, after looking at the sample questions. http://www.engageny.org/resource/new-york-state-common-core-sample-questions http://www.engageny.org/resource/new-york-state-common-core-... These are different types of questions that require you to think more than the tests that I took in 5th to 8th grade. IMO, the biggest issue here is that its a hard test. Tests have been very easy for the last couple of decades. When I was in high school in the 90s, our teachers in 10th grade gave us a 1969 nys regents exam for math 2 and earth science as a practice exercise. They were an order of magnitude more difficult that the actual exams given in 1994/1995. The biggest problem here is that they are making everyone take the tests. Back in ye olden days, the college prep kids took the hard stuff only. You're not going to get a lot of good results in tests that require abstract thinking in poor districts -- the parents are idiots and let the kids stay out too late, don't enforce homework rules, etc.