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I like how you downvoted me for factual information. Please look up their competitors, as well as their tinier ones. The margins in the sector are similar acros

I like how you downvoted me for factual information. Please look up their competitors, as well as their tinier ones. The margins in the sector are similar across the board. The financial statements are audited by third party accountants. Studies from healthcare researchers use those margins. I didn't know I was responding to a conspiracy theorist, which I hope you're not.

moron4hire 13y ago
I didn't downvote you.
3825 13y ago
I am not trying to support your parent comment. However, the current trend in healthcare cost is unsustainable. My roommate (stupidly, in hindsight) went to get an ER after being scratched by a small cat in our parking lot. The total bill was over $8k for about an hour of care and two shots. This is unacceptable. There must be some sort of accountability in the system. Unless, there is a secret pact between the hospital and the insurance company to show a larger bill to make the patient think he is getting his money's worth in which case I have nothing to say. If we can't control the price, can I write a will saying my estate will actively refuse care for anything that costs more than 5k out of pocket per day and 15k annually? In the event I do need care that costs beyond that point, please give me a quick and (hopefully) painless death instead.
- mikeash 13y ago
  There essentially is such a secret pact. The official hospital bill is a worst case that roughly nobody actually pays. It exists for leverage, both with insurance companies and with people paying out of pocket. It also exists because some people will actually pay it, and that's profit for the hospital. Because hospitals are mandated to perform life-saving treatment regardless of willingness to pay, they have to foist the cost of that treatment onto their other customers. However, insurance companies hate paying much above cost, and they have a huge stick in the form of "we will remove your hospital from our network of approved providers" to get the hospital not to charge too much. Hospitals can't recoup those extra costs from insured people too well, so it tends to fall mostly on uninsured people with money. But the way it works is everyone gets the same bill, and then when the insurance company steps in to pay it, they activate their secret pact with the hospital to pay a small amount above cost instead of the nominal $8k figure. Yeah, it's insane.
  - 3825 13y ago
    Wow, this is insane. I for one believe that prices should be transparent and secret pacts like these should be broken with (I am not normally fond of this phrase but I will use it here) zero tolerance. If there is a pact, the hospital and the insurance company both get shut down and both management teams get a speedy trial and get sentenced for life without parole. This is absolutely nonnegotiable. Here I am, broken, talking about end-of-life to avoid my family from getting a big fat debt and we don't even know how much a hospital actually charges for a procedure? Require all hospitals to publish their rates and shut down anyone who negotiates any kind of discount. We have to contain health care costs and these shenanigans have got to go. I'd really like to know how the system works in single-payer systems. How does Canada government pay for health care? I am sorry for the over the top comments but these secret pacts, if they are real, make me livid. OK, what can we practically do so we see the real cost of healthcare in our invoice regardless of insurance company we select? Is it even practical to expect to see costs up front?
    - genwin 13y ago
      It's not illegal price fixing or anything like that. The hospital charges $10K for simple procedure, and then the insurance company reduces it (per contract between them and the hospital) to the "reasonable and customary" $200. Presumably Canada does the same thing, and presumably in Canada there's no point to the hospital charging $10K when they know there's only one payer possible at $200. It's all but impossible to see costs up front in the US. Hospitals insist on determining the charge at the point of billing.
      - 3825 13y ago
        >Hospitals insist on determining the charge at the point of billing. Can I start a restaurant and make people pay at the point of billing? Like an upscale restaurant with no prices on the menu and then charge people differently based on what they clothes are wearing... "Surprise! Your burger was $800 but we will work with you on a payment plan." Someone behind you in the billing line says, "Oh, you should have signed up for Acme's Burger Protection Racket and paid $150 a month and that way you would only have to pay $1k deductible and then you'd only have to pay 20% co-insurance for most means at this Fatso's joint there after." I don't know how I feel about this whole thing. I certainly don't have all the answers and things we do to make healthcare better could actually end up making it worse. :(
- Camillo 13y ago
  That's exactly what's happening. The insurance company doesn't pay anywhere close to that price. Neither do uninsured people, typically - they just go bankrupt. There's a collusion between hospitals and insurers to help cook each other's books, and to inflate the customer's perception of value. BTW, if you are uninsured you should negotiate before receiving service, apparently you can get a big discount simply by agreeing to pay ahead of time. Of course that's not really feasible in true emergencies, but you can still negotiate a payment plan.
Groxx 13y ago
They are actually incapable of downvoting you - you can't downvote direct replies to yourself.

moron4hire 13y ago

I didn't downvote you.

3825 13y ago

I am not trying to support your parent comment. However, the current trend in healthcare cost is unsustainable. My roommate (stupidly, in hindsight) went to get an ER after being scratched by a small cat in our parking lot. The total bill was over $8k for about an hour of care and two shots. This is unacceptable. There must be some sort of accountability in the system. Unless, there is a secret pact between the hospital and the insurance company to show a larger bill to make the patient think he is getting his money's worth in which case I have nothing to say. If we can't control the price, can I write a will saying my estate will actively refuse care for anything that costs more than 5k out of pocket per day and 15k annually? In the event I do need care that costs beyond that point, please give me a quick and (hopefully) painless death instead.

mikeash 13y ago
There essentially is such a secret pact. The official hospital bill is a worst case that roughly nobody actually pays. It exists for leverage, both with insurance companies and with people paying out of pocket. It also exists because some people will actually pay it, and that's profit for the hospital. Because hospitals are mandated to perform life-saving treatment regardless of willingness to pay, they have to foist the cost of that treatment onto their other customers. However, insurance companies hate paying much above cost, and they have a huge stick in the form of "we will remove your hospital from our network of approved providers" to get the hospital not to charge too much. Hospitals can't recoup those extra costs from insured people too well, so it tends to fall mostly on uninsured people with money. But the way it works is everyone gets the same bill, and then when the insurance company steps in to pay it, they activate their secret pact with the hospital to pay a small amount above cost instead of the nominal $8k figure. Yeah, it's insane.
- 3825 13y ago
  Wow, this is insane. I for one believe that prices should be transparent and secret pacts like these should be broken with (I am not normally fond of this phrase but I will use it here) zero tolerance. If there is a pact, the hospital and the insurance company both get shut down and both management teams get a speedy trial and get sentenced for life without parole. This is absolutely nonnegotiable. Here I am, broken, talking about end-of-life to avoid my family from getting a big fat debt and we don't even know how much a hospital actually charges for a procedure? Require all hospitals to publish their rates and shut down anyone who negotiates any kind of discount. We have to contain health care costs and these shenanigans have got to go. I'd really like to know how the system works in single-payer systems. How does Canada government pay for health care? I am sorry for the over the top comments but these secret pacts, if they are real, make me livid. OK, what can we practically do so we see the real cost of healthcare in our invoice regardless of insurance company we select? Is it even practical to expect to see costs up front?
  - genwin 13y ago
    It's not illegal price fixing or anything like that. The hospital charges $10K for simple procedure, and then the insurance company reduces it (per contract between them and the hospital) to the "reasonable and customary" $200. Presumably Canada does the same thing, and presumably in Canada there's no point to the hospital charging $10K when they know there's only one payer possible at $200. It's all but impossible to see costs up front in the US. Hospitals insist on determining the charge at the point of billing.
    - 3825 13y ago
      >Hospitals insist on determining the charge at the point of billing. Can I start a restaurant and make people pay at the point of billing? Like an upscale restaurant with no prices on the menu and then charge people differently based on what they clothes are wearing... "Surprise! Your burger was $800 but we will work with you on a payment plan." Someone behind you in the billing line says, "Oh, you should have signed up for Acme's Burger Protection Racket and paid $150 a month and that way you would only have to pay $1k deductible and then you'd only have to pay 20% co-insurance for most means at this Fatso's joint there after." I don't know how I feel about this whole thing. I certainly don't have all the answers and things we do to make healthcare better could actually end up making it worse. :(
Camillo 13y ago
That's exactly what's happening. The insurance company doesn't pay anywhere close to that price. Neither do uninsured people, typically - they just go bankrupt. There's a collusion between hospitals and insurers to help cook each other's books, and to inflate the customer's perception of value. BTW, if you are uninsured you should negotiate before receiving service, apparently you can get a big discount simply by agreeing to pay ahead of time. Of course that's not really feasible in true emergencies, but you can still negotiate a payment plan.

Groxx 13y ago

They are actually incapable of downvoting you - you can't downvote direct replies to yourself.