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Tesla outsells Porsche, Jaguar, others in California
- arjn 13y agoThis may be the quiet beginning of a revolution. A shift in not only the public perception of all-electric/non-petroleum vehicles, but also in their availability and affordability.
- JoeAltmaier 13y agoI wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't Tesla's game plan all along. Start with cool; move into affordable.
- joejohnson 13y agoIt was. Musk stated exactly that in 2006: http://www.teslamotors.com/fr_CH/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me http://www.teslamotors.com/fr_CH/blog/secret-tesla-motors-ma...
- mbreese 13y agoThis is every car makers strategy too... most (all?) of the gadgets and safety gear that are available in modern lower-end cars were developed in higher priced product lines (or even racing models). Power locks/windows, Satnav, power steering, anti-lock brakes, etc... The higher margins help pay for the development of what will be standard features 5-10 years down the road.
- Wilya 13y agoAffordability and availability ? This is silly. Tesla is making electric cars that rich people would actually buy. Not low-end electric cars for the masses.
- scott_s 13y agoEveryone has assumed (or have they explicitly stated?) that they are using the research, development and sales of the expensive cars to lead towards building and selling cheaper cars.
- dylandrop 13y agoAgain, see (http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-to-introduce-new-30000-compact-sedan-as-electric-car-company-expands-its-charging-network/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-to-introduce-new-300...). It's not an unfounded assumption, because it has been stated many times by Musk & Co. Just search "tesla 30k car", you'll see it's not just a rumor.
- dylandrop 13y agoTesla often cites that it started out in the luxury car market to recoup R&D costs and entry costs (getting their first factory, etc.), and have mentioned multiple times that they're planning on building a ~30k car within the next 5 years or so (http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-to-introduce-new-30000-compact-sedan-as-electric-car-company-expands-its-charging-network/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-to-introduce-new-300...). So no, this is not silly.
- miratrix 13y agoThe problem is that once you get down to ~$30k pure electric car, you're going to end up something that looks like the Nissan Leaf, even 5 years from now. There is no magical Tesla dust that allows them to circumvent the laws of physics and economics. The problem is in the batteries - Tesla Model S batteries come in 60 and 85 kWhr capacities. Using the most generous specific energy estimates and the price estimates (265 Whr/kg and 2.5 Whr/US$ - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery), you're looking at 500 to 700 lb of extra weight and $24k~$32k due to batteries alone. Even if the price halves in 5 years, you can't make money spending up to half the price of the car in batteries alone. As a premium car, Tesla can charge the extra money required for the large battery pack and things like all aluminum chassis in Model S. At the lowered price point, the revenue just is not there to justify these things. This basically means that to hit the $30k price point, you're going to end up with a much smaller battery pack (like Leaf's 24kWhr battery pack) and much smaller car so that they can hit the (lowered) performance target in both the driving characteristics (acceleration, top speed, etc which depend greatly on curb weight) and range (weight and battery capacity). If you look at the engineering trade-offs required to get to $30k pure electric car in 5 year timeframe, it's hard to imagine something drastically different from Nissan Leaf in range, size, and driving characteristics.
- qbrass 13y agoA $30k Tesla doesn't have to differ drastically in range, size, and driving characteristics over the Leaf. As long as they make something that doesn't look ghastly, it's already got an advantage over the Nissan. They don't need to profit directly on the low end cars, they're looking at increasing the number of Tesla owners, which will help to push pro-Tesla agenda and sell charging stations or other Tesla technologies.
- curiousDog 13y agoStill kicking myself for selling my stock at $90.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- alyx 13y agoStill kicking myself for not buying the stock when it was $27 :)
- mehrdada 13y agoIf you want to kick yourself for not buying anything, which is not a wise thing to do considering there's always something growing faster than you'd expect, kick yourself for not buying TSLA options, not the stock. That's where the real money was.
- chris_mahan 13y agoI did buy the stock at 27, and also at 17. Back then, thought, the naysaysers were all: Tesla will fail; Tesla will never make a profit; Teslas are too hard to recharge, yadda yadda. I invested $3K (today: $17K). I also invested in Ford (made 9K) and American Airlines (lost $600) and Washington Mutual (lost $300). You've got to spend money to make money. My prediction? TSLA at 500 sooner rather than later. Who would have predicted Google at 700 three years ago? (it was 430 then) Of course, now look for competitors, especially those who can poach Tesla people. I imagine all the car makers are researching aluminum bodies and electric powertrains. Do your research. I had already decided to buy TSLA 6 months before IPO, when Elon, A'nold and Toyota President made presentation at Google One on saving the Nummi plant. My strategy on investing: stable, smart management; products people buy; stocks only. (no mutual funds, bonds, etfs, etc--if your company does matching 401k, take it, but don't bank on superior annual yields). Learn about foreign exchange. Read everything you can about the companies. Read all SEC filings on the companies you invest in and all their competitors. Stay away from tech, retail, and financial services. These are iffy. Read about the US economy, about the economy of large foreign countries: China, Japan, Germany, France, UK, Russia, India, and if you have time, Poland, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico. Stay away from precious metals, they are a form of currency, with ill-understood inflation. Stay away from airlines. Stay away from very heavily regulated industries that are utilities (telcos, cable, etc). Stay away from disposable-income consumer products--consumers are fickle. Sell equal amounts of losses and gains, to limit tax exposures. Don't hold on to a stock for sentimental values. If you can't afford to take the risk of it going to zero tomorrow morning, don't buy. Diversify your portfolio. (I have holdings in 60 companies right now.) An interesting side-effect of studying the market: choice of programming language makes zero difference. If the company is successful, you will be able to hire people to rewrite it all in whatever language is fastest that day. To quote the Unix philosophy: Make it work correctly first, and make it fast later. Facebook today has a market cap just above $100B (price 41 and change) and got started with PHP. Don't knock PHP. By the way, FB's capitalization is 5 times that of TSLA. Finally, and oddly, smaller companies tend to yield higher returns (not by much, but some).
- bluedevil2k 13y agoI am totally in the Tesla camp, but to play devil's advocate, isn't profitability the real important number here? Tesla just became profitable, but Porsche is the most profitable car company (http://www.dw.de/porsche-emerges-as-worlds-most-profitable-carmaker/a-16727077 http://www.dw.de/porsche-emerges-as-worlds-most-profitable-c...)
- devx 13y agoIn the grand scheme of things, that's irrelevant for Tesla. Right now it's good for PR, and it's good that it makes at least as much money as the others. But unlike Tesla, Porsche will never make a mass-market play. Tesla will - at least in the sense that Apple is making a mass-market play in the smartphone market. Tesla may never become the biggest "car company" in the world, although there's a pretty big chance it will become (if it isn't already) the biggest "electric car company" in the world. Either way, it will be a very important and popular car company, that will get big enough to be able to drag the whole industry after it, and set the standards for the industry.
- bnejad 13y agoI'm surprised they are making ~$22 per unit.. I didn't realize car margins were so low. Unless that article means $22,000
- lmartel 13y agoThe European convention is to use dots in large numbers where Americans use commas. So yes, that's $22000
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- wbond 13y agoIn many European countries a period is the thousands separator and the comma is the decimal separator. So yes, $22k per unit.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- awwstn 13y agoThe most interesting part of this article to me is that the Ford F-Series pickup truck is the nation's top selling automobile. It makes sense now, but it wouldn't have been my first guess.
- humbyvaldes 13y agoTesla should make trucks if thats the case :)
- bluedevil2k 13y agoNot just this year, but 24 years straight in the US
- speeder 13y agoTo showcase Brazil crazy taxes: on our local eBay clone, a new F truck costs 250k USD Oo
- jlgreco 13y agoAt that point it probably starts to make sense to find "some guys" down at the docks that can help you with some shipping containers...
- HeyLaughingBoy 13y agoWhich one? the F150 is really the only "mass market" Ford F-series pickup. Once you get into the Super Duty line -- F250 and above -- they are more inclined towards commercial buyers and the price climbs quickly. Have to say, tho, that my wife's F250 diesel feels like it could tow an aircraft carrier!
- protomyth 13y agoExpect a bit of a spike in 2014 F-150s given Ford is changing it for the 2015 model year. Given some of the changes seem like downgrades to the core audience (e.g. lower payload and towing weights).
- gtaylor 13y ago
- auctiontheory 13y agoThe title may be literally true, but is very misleading. Many of the sales booked to Tesla in California are intended for buyers in other states that lack a Tesla dealership (but do have Porsche and Jaguar dealerships).
- deltaqueue 13y agoThis was my initial thought given the dealership limitations in North Carolina, Virginia, Texas, Minnesota, and New York, but do you know for sure how out-of-state sales work? I'm asking because the report seems to use registrations and not just sales figures to describe the numbers in California[1]. To my knowledge a registration only occurs in the state where you're going to use the vehicle, but I don't know if the process varies for these trouble states. [1] http://www.cncda.org/secure/GetFile.aspx?ID=2583 http://www.cncda.org/secure/GetFile.aspx?ID=2583
- teleclimber 13y agoThe article refers to "registrations" in CA. Presumably Teslas sold to out-of-state buyers do not count towards that number. Anecdotally, whenever I am in the Brentwood/Santa Monica/other nice areas of West LA, Tesla sightings are getting very common. It's like the next Prius around here.
- hippee-lee 13y agoI'm up in Westlake Village and it's almost daily. My first grade daughter points them out to me ( I talk to her about cool logos and over such things ). She will say, "Daddy theres a Tesla logo. " I'll say, "Where and what color." Immediately followed by, " Oh yeah, right you are. Good eye."
- pbreit 13y agoAre you speculating or can you point to some evidence? My understanding is that the numbers report "registrations", not "sales", which would be contrary to your assertion.
- imownbey 13y agoThis seems like an unfair comparison. While people buy new Porsches and Jaguars when they need them I think a lot of people have been buying Tesla because of the novelty. This doesn't make this any less impressive, but I am not sure that it is fair to make the comparison of a company which needs to generate novelty year after year (like Jaguar and Porsche) with an entirely novel company (like Tesla). If Tesla was putting out yearly models than this would be much more news.
- ImprovedSilence 13y ago>> While people buy new Porsches and Jaguars when they need them ....meeeeh, nobody really neeeeds a Porsche, they just buy them for the novelty (of sportiness) one could say. I think a Tesla in certain areas (anywhere near a big city) could make a much more practical purchase than a Porsche... edit: Also, 60k ain't what it used to be. Heck, you'll pay that for a 3-series BMW these days (335i).
- level09 13y agois it fair to compare Tesla sales to Porsche, Jaguar ? aren't these from a different class ?
- true_religion 13y agoNot really, Tesla makes a sports car comparable to the Porsche.
- vonskippy 13y agoObviously you've never driven a Porsche. Except perhaps for the very bottom of Porsche's product lines, the Tesla isn't even close. Tesla is for geeks and treehuggers - but anyone into cars takes a quick look and then laughs - it's definitely not a gearheads ride in any way shape or form.
- true_religion 13y ago> Except perhaps for the very bottom of Porsche's product lines, the Tesla isn't even close. So we're in agreement then. The Tesla price point is pretty similar to stock bottom-of-price 911s, and their 0-60 is comparable as well. I can't speak on handling, but from an outside point of view---they're both sports cars targeting the same market. If Porsche is better than Tesla, that doesn't change their chosen demographic.
- pbreit 13y agoPorsche and Jaguar both sell very direct competitors to Tesla. Which makes it even more impressive that Tesla's one model is outselling those brand's in their entirety.
- sliverstorm 13y agoIt will be more impressive if Tesla sustains the lead. Auto sales are very "bursty", with huge jumps at the first offering of a new model, and the Tesla S is not only a new model, but the first viable electric in its class. So I expect the levels of demand we see (in its class) today, like the surges of floodwaters, are the highest they will be and will dwindle from here.
- jeroen 13y agoWe already had an arstechnica article about the same news here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6267478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6267478
- rightnow 13y agoWhats up with all the whine about Tesla all the time? There is no news on hacker news when BMW outsells them all?
- nonchalance 13y agoOld discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6267478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6267478 Top two comments were: "Is anyone else tired of tesla PR and seeing 2 tesla articles here everyday?" and "Are these sales to Californians, or does this include sales made in California and delivered to another state because of the dealership issue?"
- jlampa 13y agoThe article states the numbers are "based on new-vehicle registrations.", which would suggest they are not inflated by out-of-state purchases.
- jchrisa 13y agoShameless copy/paste of my comment from the earlier article: My problem with the rah-rah around Tesla is that, good as they might be compared to the status-quo, they are still cars. There's not enough attention paid to the fact that cars and the sedentary lifestyle they encourage are a net-negative for most people. Many of the folks I talk to who'd like to move to an active form of transportation don't because they are scared of being hit by a car. We've effectively ceded huge swaths of public space to single occupancy vehicles, and made it off limits to humans. This is bad for the health of the people in those cars, but also bad for everyone else.
- apetrovic 13y agoSo, your opinion is that we should ban cars from highways so people can use bicycles to go to work? BTW, I call bullshit on "folks" you talked to - if one really wants to "move to active form of transportation" one just do it. Instead of sitting in the car and complaining how life isn't fair.
- vecinu 13y agoYou seem to have ignored the main point of the OP you're responding to. It is not SAFE to be on a bike on a public road. Do you read the news and notice how almost every week you hear of a bicyclist being hit and/or killed? I for one do not ride my bike to school because I do not feel SAFE, no matter if I wear a helmet, pads and armor.
- jchrisa 13y agoMore like ban cars from neighborhoods. And ban highways from cities.
- geargrinder 13y agoIf the government gave money to buyers of Porsches like they do for buyers of Teslas these number might be different. Or better yet, stop taking my tax dollars and giving them to rich people to buy a luxury electric vehicle.
- codex 13y agoTesla offers something these other luxury manufacturers can't: access to California's HOV lanes without meeting the occupancy requirement.