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> Basically the Russians weren't fighting to keep the Nazis from invading, but were focused on a counter-invasion. The thesis of Icebreaker [1], a controversia

> Basically the Russians weren't fighting to keep the Nazis from invading, but were focused on a counter-invasion. The thesis of Icebreaker [1], a controversial history book by an ex-GRU officer, is that Stalin was planning an invasion of Germany right when Operation Barbarossa happened. However, his interpretation is disputed by most historians. What is certain is that the Red Army was caught with its pants down and got a sound beating at the beginning. However, they did fight with tremendous tenacity (eg, at Stalingrad) later on, and eventually pushed back the Germans. You'll also note that Germans and Japanese troops fought with particular determination even when it became clear that defeat was the only possible outcome. Contrast this with the dismal performance of French and British troops during the Battle of France.

int_19h 13y ago
> You'll also note that Germans and Japanese troops fought with particular determination even when it became clear that defeat was the only possible outcome. I actually recall reading regarding Germans that there was a very peculiar distortion of perception there when even during late 1944 and early 1945, with Soviet armies literally at the door, a lot of people genuinely still believed that a victory (at that point defined as peace on non-debilitating terms) was highly likely - based on letters and other personal correspondence from that period, journals etc.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  I'm not so sure about that. When cities like Dresden were bombed day and night and destroyed to the ground, it'd be very hard to believe Victory or Peace is at hand. Maybe people living in Berlin had that perception, but I would be very surprised if that was a general sentiment in Germany.
ekianjo 13y ago
> Contrast this with the dismal performance of French and British troops during the Battle of France. Contrast this with the millions of people who died in Germany and Japan because of that determination (or should I say their rulers' determination!), without avoiding the final outcome at all. The French government understood very fast they were completely behind and were going to lose and they did the right thing to avoid a massacre which would have prevented nothing. And besides, in Germany and Japan people were forced into fighting until the end (even teenagers in Germany), it's not like it was the "nation in arms" or something. Nobody wants to lose their life on purpose.
- mercurial 13y ago
  > Contrast this with the millions of people who died in Germany and Japan because of that determination (or should I say their rulers' determination!), without avoiding the final outcome at all. The French government understood very fast they were completely behind and were going to lose and they did the right thing to avoid a massacre which would have prevented nothing. I was more thinking in terms of low troop morale and lack of aggressivity of (in particular) French high command. A contrario, German troops, although outclassed both on the Western and Eastern fronts by the end of the war, managed a fighting retreat in mostly good order, even mounting a daring counter-offensive in the Ardennes in 1944 which caught Allied troops flat-footed. > And besides, in Germany and Japan people were forced into fighting until the end (even teenagers in Germany), it's not like it was the "nation in arms" or something. Nobody wants to lose their life on purpose. You are thinking of the Volkssturm, which had a relatively minor impact on the war, and only existed for a few months. On the other hand, regular German units did not collapse and disintegrate under pressure, when they could simply have surrendered to the Allies (at least on the Western front). As for Japanese units, just read about the battle of Iwo Jima. I'm not aware that Japanese units on the island were more "forced to fight" than any other body of troops, but still fought almost to the last man, in spite of their poor physical condition.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    > I'm not aware that Japanese units on the island were more "forced to fight" than any other body of troops, but still fought almost to the last man, in spite of their poor physical condition. They fought out of despair since they were told they would be tortured if they ever get caught (and most of them killed themselves instead of surrendering in the end). And it's not like they had anywhere to go at Iwo Jima. They were on an island.

int_19h 13y ago

> You'll also note that Germans and Japanese troops fought with particular determination even when it became clear that defeat was the only possible outcome. I actually recall reading regarding Germans that there was a very peculiar distortion of perception there when even during late 1944 and early 1945, with Soviet armies literally at the door, a lot of people genuinely still believed that a victory (at that point defined as peace on non-debilitating terms) was highly likely - based on letters and other personal correspondence from that period, journals etc.

ekianjo 13y ago
I'm not so sure about that. When cities like Dresden were bombed day and night and destroyed to the ground, it'd be very hard to believe Victory or Peace is at hand. Maybe people living in Berlin had that perception, but I would be very surprised if that was a general sentiment in Germany.

ekianjo 13y ago

> Contrast this with the dismal performance of French and British troops during the Battle of France. Contrast this with the millions of people who died in Germany and Japan because of that determination (or should I say their rulers' determination!), without avoiding the final outcome at all. The French government understood very fast they were completely behind and were going to lose and they did the right thing to avoid a massacre which would have prevented nothing. And besides, in Germany and Japan people were forced into fighting until the end (even teenagers in Germany), it's not like it was the "nation in arms" or something. Nobody wants to lose their life on purpose.

mercurial 13y ago
> Contrast this with the millions of people who died in Germany and Japan because of that determination (or should I say their rulers' determination!), without avoiding the final outcome at all. The French government understood very fast they were completely behind and were going to lose and they did the right thing to avoid a massacre which would have prevented nothing. I was more thinking in terms of low troop morale and lack of aggressivity of (in particular) French high command. A contrario, German troops, although outclassed both on the Western and Eastern fronts by the end of the war, managed a fighting retreat in mostly good order, even mounting a daring counter-offensive in the Ardennes in 1944 which caught Allied troops flat-footed. > And besides, in Germany and Japan people were forced into fighting until the end (even teenagers in Germany), it's not like it was the "nation in arms" or something. Nobody wants to lose their life on purpose. You are thinking of the Volkssturm, which had a relatively minor impact on the war, and only existed for a few months. On the other hand, regular German units did not collapse and disintegrate under pressure, when they could simply have surrendered to the Allies (at least on the Western front). As for Japanese units, just read about the battle of Iwo Jima. I'm not aware that Japanese units on the island were more "forced to fight" than any other body of troops, but still fought almost to the last man, in spite of their poor physical condition.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  > I'm not aware that Japanese units on the island were more "forced to fight" than any other body of troops, but still fought almost to the last man, in spite of their poor physical condition. They fought out of despair since they were told they would be tortured if they ever get caught (and most of them killed themselves instead of surrendering in the end). And it's not like they had anywhere to go at Iwo Jima. They were on an island.