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There's just so much wrong with your short little comment here, I've rewritten my own comment four or five times trying to capture it all. Here's the bulleted

There's just so much wrong with your short little comment here, I've rewritten my own comment four or five times trying to capture it all. Here's the bulleted list: * Yes, I really do want to fill my company with people who want to be there 24x7, for many reasons, least of which are the fact that such people exist in large quantities, and while it's not a guarantee they'll put in more work-per-dollar, it's a safe bet that they will. * If what you're saying were true about "sole traders", then Google, Stripe, and all the companies who play these "rediculous parlor games" would not be staffed, and yet they are. So clearly, that's an inaccurate prediction. * Your girlfriend listed professions which come with multi-year vetting built-into the system. No such system exists for programmers, especially, considering some of your best talent is going to have dropped out of college. When you get an applicant for a software dev position, they could be effectively anybody. If you're not willing to play the game at the level other folks are playing, you will need to bring something else to the table to compensate. That's that.

amasad 13y ago
I don't think the Sunday test means they're trying to fill the office with people with no lives, if anything, I think to be a likeable person you need to have some social life. >* Yes, I really do want to fill my company with people who want to be there 24x7, for many reasons, least of which are the fact that such people exist in large quantities, and while it's not a guarantee they'll put in more work-per-dollar, it's a safe bet that they will. You obviously have never witnessed or have burnout yourself. That "want to be in the office 24x7" will easily become an implicit rule and eventually everyone involved will burnout. I've seen that myself. It takes maturity to come to terms with the fact that you can't work all the time.
- diminoten 13y ago
  24x7 is hyperbole. No one literally wants to be there 24x7, but some people want to be at work more than others. If your argument is that no one can maintain any more than a 40 hour work week without burning out, I disagree. So yes, even aware of burnout, I would still want to fill my company with people who want to work more than 40 hours a week. This may be a twisted analogy, but I think of work in a way similar to how one properly cages a dog. Some people make cages a place of punishment for their dog; break a rule, be disruptive, and you enter the cage, which is far away from all happiness or socialization. It's a place for bad dogs. It makes the cage a hugely negative place for the dog, and causes all kinds of anxiety and trouble. The solution? Make the cage an everyday and normal part of the dog's life. Put the cage in the middle of a high-traffic area, leave the door open so the dog can go rest in the cage when it's tired, make the cage a comfortable and happy place for the dog, and it becomes much easier to put the dog into the cage when the time calls for it (company, leaving the house, etc.). Work should be thought of similarly. It can be your 9-5 cage, or it can be a place you come and go, a place to willingly spend free time, a social experience where you interact with cool and interesting people who you'd hang out with even if you didn't work with them. In both cases, you have to be there 9-5, but in the latter case, you actually want to be there, and it's not associated with huge Dilbertesque negatives. So when someone talks about "I want people who want to be there 24x7", they're talking about having a cage that isn't for bad dogs, but a part of their everyday doggy life.
maratd 13y ago
> Yes, I really do want to fill my company with people who want to be there 24x7 No, you don't. This is naive. Human beings aren't computers. There is no constant output per hour of work. It's nonsense. The output per hour of work depends entirely on the state of mind and physical condition of the employee. If the employee is well-rested, healthy, and happy, they will be quite productive. If they are sleep-deprived because they stayed at the office until midnight, depressed because they have nobody to share their life with, and physically exhausted or sick because they haven't taken time off in years ... you really think they will produce the same output as well-rested, happy employees? No. They won't even produce a quarter. In fact, they will make mistakes that will end up costing you on top of whatever it is that you're paying them.
- diminoten 13y ago
  That's such a strawman! No one wants a depressed, exhausted, sick worker, and no one has ever suggested such a worker would be better to have than a 9-5 happy and healthy person. Your presupposition the sick guy is how everyone will become if they work an hour over 40 with any regularity is just plain not true. There are people who are at a point in their careers and lives which allow them the ability to invest more time and energy into work in a regular and patterned way than others. It's frankly naive to think there aren't people out there who want to be at work, and can be at work for more than the 9-5 grind each week. Do the sickly people exist? Yes. Can you be happy, healthy, and work 60 hour weeks while still loving your job? Yes.
  - zerooneinfinity 13y ago
    It's an easy way to get burned out. If the employee is good enough, he or she should be able to accomplish what they need to in a 40 hour week. If it takes 1.5x as long then they aren't cut out for it, or the employer is over working them. Occasionally it's OK to work more then 40 hours for milestones but every week is ridiculous. One of the biggest reasons you don't want this as an employer is the employee has no time to grow personally and pursue things on his own time.
    - 13y ago

amasad 13y ago

I don't think the Sunday test means they're trying to fill the office with people with no lives, if anything, I think to be a likeable person you need to have some social life. >* Yes, I really do want to fill my company with people who want to be there 24x7, for many reasons, least of which are the fact that such people exist in large quantities, and while it's not a guarantee they'll put in more work-per-dollar, it's a safe bet that they will. You obviously have never witnessed or have burnout yourself. That "want to be in the office 24x7" will easily become an implicit rule and eventually everyone involved will burnout. I've seen that myself. It takes maturity to come to terms with the fact that you can't work all the time.

diminoten 13y ago
24x7 is hyperbole. No one literally wants to be there 24x7, but some people want to be at work more than others. If your argument is that no one can maintain any more than a 40 hour work week without burning out, I disagree. So yes, even aware of burnout, I would still want to fill my company with people who want to work more than 40 hours a week. This may be a twisted analogy, but I think of work in a way similar to how one properly cages a dog. Some people make cages a place of punishment for their dog; break a rule, be disruptive, and you enter the cage, which is far away from all happiness or socialization. It's a place for bad dogs. It makes the cage a hugely negative place for the dog, and causes all kinds of anxiety and trouble. The solution? Make the cage an everyday and normal part of the dog's life. Put the cage in the middle of a high-traffic area, leave the door open so the dog can go rest in the cage when it's tired, make the cage a comfortable and happy place for the dog, and it becomes much easier to put the dog into the cage when the time calls for it (company, leaving the house, etc.). Work should be thought of similarly. It can be your 9-5 cage, or it can be a place you come and go, a place to willingly spend free time, a social experience where you interact with cool and interesting people who you'd hang out with even if you didn't work with them. In both cases, you have to be there 9-5, but in the latter case, you actually want to be there, and it's not associated with huge Dilbertesque negatives. So when someone talks about "I want people who want to be there 24x7", they're talking about having a cage that isn't for bad dogs, but a part of their everyday doggy life.

maratd 13y ago

> Yes, I really do want to fill my company with people who want to be there 24x7 No, you don't. This is naive. Human beings aren't computers. There is no constant output per hour of work. It's nonsense. The output per hour of work depends entirely on the state of mind and physical condition of the employee. If the employee is well-rested, healthy, and happy, they will be quite productive. If they are sleep-deprived because they stayed at the office until midnight, depressed because they have nobody to share their life with, and physically exhausted or sick because they haven't taken time off in years ... you really think they will produce the same output as well-rested, happy employees? No. They won't even produce a quarter. In fact, they will make mistakes that will end up costing you on top of whatever it is that you're paying them.

diminoten 13y ago
That's such a strawman! No one wants a depressed, exhausted, sick worker, and no one has ever suggested such a worker would be better to have than a 9-5 happy and healthy person. Your presupposition the sick guy is how everyone will become if they work an hour over 40 with any regularity is just plain not true. There are people who are at a point in their careers and lives which allow them the ability to invest more time and energy into work in a regular and patterned way than others. It's frankly naive to think there aren't people out there who want to be at work, and can be at work for more than the 9-5 grind each week. Do the sickly people exist? Yes. Can you be happy, healthy, and work 60 hour weeks while still loving your job? Yes.
- zerooneinfinity 13y ago
  It's an easy way to get burned out. If the employee is good enough, he or she should be able to accomplish what they need to in a 40 hour week. If it takes 1.5x as long then they aren't cut out for it, or the employer is over working them. Occasionally it's OK to work more then 40 hours for milestones but every week is ridiculous. One of the biggest reasons you don't want this as an employer is the employee has no time to grow personally and pursue things on his own time.
  - 13y ago