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Perhaps you and I have a different idea on what "Political Correctness" actually is. My view is that many mistake Scientifically Correct from Politically Corre

by JPKab 13y ago

Perhaps you and I have a different idea on what "Political Correctness" actually is. My view is that many mistake Scientifically Correct from Politically Correct. It is Scientifically Correct to say that there is very little difference, genetically, between Europeans, Asians, Africans, Latin Americans, etc. It also happens to be Politically Correct. However, it is also Scientifically Correct to say that there are huge disparities in victim reported violent crime rates between Europeans, Asians, Africans, and Latin Americans. However, this is not Politically Correct. This is an example of where a problem is identified, but unable to be discussed in the public sphere. If a problem can't be discussed, it can't be solved. An African-American male is over 7 times more likely to murder a person than a Hispanic or European-American male. He is also over 6 times more likely to be the victim of a murder. This is elementary statistics based on data collected by the FBI. If this problem (which in my opinion is cultural rather than this phony construct called "racial") can't be discussed in an honest fashion due to political organizations which will threaten politicians with boycotts/villification/etc due to their refusal to acknowledge inconvenient truths, then the problem will simply continue. Not talking about it makes the problem become uglier, because non-Black Americans in general have internalized the fact that poor Black neighborhoods are vastly more violent and dangerous. Any realtor can tell you this. They deal with people's ACTUAL prejudices every day, rather than the Politically Correct, aspirational notions of the desire to live in a diverse neighborhood. I say this as a white guy who grew up in various poor parts of the south, and spent large parts of my childhood with mostly black friends in mostly black neighborhoods. Political Correctness prevents us from collectively helping the predominantly black victims of a large sub-culture of black America that celebrates crime, dehumanizes women and gays, views educational/career achievement as betrayal of black identity, and tolerate men who willingly abandon their families. America will not succeed as a nation unless black Americans succeed, and political correctness throws them to the wolves by pretending a problem they are victimized by doesn't exist.

Anechoic 13y ago
* This is elementary statistics based on data collected by the FBI. If this problem [..] can't be discussed in an honest fashion due to political organizations which will threaten politicians with boycotts/villification/etc due to their refusal to acknowledge inconvenient truths, then the problem will simply continue.* These statistics are discussed in an honest fashion, from Saturday mornings in the barber shop to academic works. The problem isn't discussion, the problem is that too many folks don't realize "blacks are overrepresented in crime" is not the same as "most blacks commit crimes" and use those statistics to justify policies like "stop and frisk" and "it's okay to follow a black kid a night because he's wearing a hoodie." Political Correctness prevents us from collectively helping the predominantly black victims of a large sub-culture of black America that celebrates crime, dehumanizes women and gays, views educational/career achievement as betrayal of black identity, and tolerate men who willingly abandon their families. This sentence would be equally true without the word "black." Political correctness indeed.
- JPKab 13y ago
  "This sentence would be equally true without the word "black." Political correctness indeed." Sorry, but the phenomenon of being accused of betraying your cultural identity by peers if you succeed in school and get a job is mainly a phenomenon found in a sub-culture of black America. Anyone who has been immersed in an African-American community for any length of time can tell you this. The typical insult among school-children is "acting white" or "Oreo" and it is widespread enough to warrant heavy discussion within the mainstream black community. My best friend growing up was harassed and bullied constantly in this way. It was a particularly vicious kind of bullying that I've never seen Asian, Hispanic or white children ever have to deal with.
  - Anechoic 13y ago
    is mainly a phenomenon found in a sub-culture of black America. You only have to watch prime-time television to know that phenomenon is common amongst many demographics. Anyone who has been immersed in an African-American community for any length of time can tell you this. I'm black. I went to an upper-class mostly-white private school, and there was some pressure to "fail" but it came from both whites and blacks. One the other hand, my peers who went to the local inner city high schools found extremely supportive environments, so much so that I really regret that my parents sent me to the private school. The typical insult among school-children is "acting white" or "Oreo" It might be "typical" yet I never heard anyone say it out loud IRL. However terms like "nerd," "geek," "dweeb" etc were common occurrences IME. And it wasn't coming from black kids. it is widespread enough to warrant heavy discussion within the mainstream black community. Heavy discussion is not academic rigor. It's been studied by a lot of people (not just Ogbu) and as might be expected, the results are complicated. Quoting from an older post of mine: Tyson et al found that reduced academic achievement was generally for a variety of reasons ("fear of not doing well academically" being the biggest) and not "acting white": http://www.tc.columbia.edu/students/see/events/Darity_et_al_Understanding_Burden_Acting_White.pdf http://www.tc.columbia.edu/students/see/events/Darity_et_al_... Cook and Ludwig as well found that "acting white" was not much of a factor in academic perforamnce: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291520-6688%28199721%2916:2%3C256::AID-PAM4%3E3.0.CO;2-H/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291520-66... I had quoted from two other papers by Erika White and Roland Fryer (who is a proponent of the "acting white" hypothesis but had to adjust his definition to show any trends) but those links are dead now.
btrautsc 13y ago
as a white male who grew up in the south, thank you for writing this intelligently and highlighting these issues. its not a race problem, its a cultural problem. Political Correctness prevents us from collectively helping the predominantly black victims of a large sub-culture of black America that celebrates crime, dehumanizes women and gays, views educational/career achievement as betrayal of black identity, and tolerate men who willingly abandon their families.
- throwaway_a 13y ago
  Here comes my throwaway account for opinions that I suspect sway _WAY OUT_ of HN's comfort zone but needs to be said. I think the term "black culture" is in itself a problem because it blames the victim. The term "culture" makes people think it's something that a group of people chose for themselves. "black culture" isn't the same as "asian culture" or "irish culture". This thing we're all calling "black culture" is the result of slavery and continued racism in America. These are people who had their identity(African culture) ripped from them and left in a world of suffering and oppression. The result is what you see today. If I had a magicwand that could go back in time and remove the whole slavery thing and today's casual & institutionalized racism, you wouldn't be seeing the problems black communities have today. At least it wouldn't be anymore than any other group.
  - jessedhillon 13y ago
    It's a sad place where someone has to create a sock puppet to say "I think slavery had complicated, long-term cultural effects which are often dismissed without a second look, and I think they bear closer inspection."
    - throwaway_a 13y ago
      Indeed. Obama's speech speaks right to it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHBdZWbncXI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHBdZWbncXI Everyone, including(maybe even especially) black americans, should watch this speech. Anyone who feels Obama is wrong after watching the video should closely examine themselves for why that is and what beliefs they carry that the speech conflicts with.
ihnorton 13y ago
Citing violent crime statistics as proof of a "cultural problem" without any regressors is not particularly helpful. What are the relevant demography-adjusted statistics? There are certainly some (edit: sub-)cultural aspects, but every culture has some aspects of the negative traits you cite (e.g. most people tend to disdain out-group achievement). These traits are often drastically accentuated by poverty. In the case of black Americans, doubly so by the compounding effects of high urbanization levels.
- newnewnew 13y ago
  The difference in criminal activity between blacks and other American subgroups is so large that it is hard to imagine any regressions making much of a difference. Black males are 6% of the population and commit 53% of the murders, more than the other 94% of the population combined. Keep in mind that there are more poor whites than total blacks in the country, but the black crime numbers are higher than the total white crime numbers. Finding the root causes of the disparity would be a fascinating sociological challenge, if we had the courage to pursue it.
newnewnew 13y ago
There's enough of a genetic difference between subpopulations that if you spit in a cup and ship it to 23andMe, they can tell you where your ancestors came from. Also, there's enough of a difference so that if your ancestors aren't from West Africa, you'll never win an Olympic medal in sprinting[1]. FWIW, people that study population genetics sound shockingly racist. Science is science, whether or not we want it to be. [1] http://m.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/08/the-urgency-and-the-challenge-of-connecting-sports-race-and-genetics/278345/ http://m.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/08/the-u...

by JPKab 13y ago

Anechoic 13y ago

* This is elementary statistics based on data collected by the FBI. If this problem [..] can't be discussed in an honest fashion due to political organizations which will threaten politicians with boycotts/villification/etc due to their refusal to acknowledge inconvenient truths, then the problem will simply continue.* These statistics are discussed in an honest fashion, from Saturday mornings in the barber shop to academic works. The problem isn't discussion, the problem is that too many folks don't realize "blacks are overrepresented in crime" is not the same as "most blacks commit crimes" and use those statistics to justify policies like "stop and frisk" and "it's okay to follow a black kid a night because he's wearing a hoodie." Political Correctness prevents us from collectively helping the predominantly black victims of a large sub-culture of black America that celebrates crime, dehumanizes women and gays, views educational/career achievement as betrayal of black identity, and tolerate men who willingly abandon their families. This sentence would be equally true without the word "black." Political correctness indeed.

JPKab 13y ago
"This sentence would be equally true without the word "black." Political correctness indeed." Sorry, but the phenomenon of being accused of betraying your cultural identity by peers if you succeed in school and get a job is mainly a phenomenon found in a sub-culture of black America. Anyone who has been immersed in an African-American community for any length of time can tell you this. The typical insult among school-children is "acting white" or "Oreo" and it is widespread enough to warrant heavy discussion within the mainstream black community. My best friend growing up was harassed and bullied constantly in this way. It was a particularly vicious kind of bullying that I've never seen Asian, Hispanic or white children ever have to deal with.
- Anechoic 13y ago
  is mainly a phenomenon found in a sub-culture of black America. You only have to watch prime-time television to know that phenomenon is common amongst many demographics. Anyone who has been immersed in an African-American community for any length of time can tell you this. I'm black. I went to an upper-class mostly-white private school, and there was some pressure to "fail" but it came from both whites and blacks. One the other hand, my peers who went to the local inner city high schools found extremely supportive environments, so much so that I really regret that my parents sent me to the private school. The typical insult among school-children is "acting white" or "Oreo" It might be "typical" yet I never heard anyone say it out loud IRL. However terms like "nerd," "geek," "dweeb" etc were common occurrences IME. And it wasn't coming from black kids. it is widespread enough to warrant heavy discussion within the mainstream black community. Heavy discussion is not academic rigor. It's been studied by a lot of people (not just Ogbu) and as might be expected, the results are complicated. Quoting from an older post of mine: Tyson et al found that reduced academic achievement was generally for a variety of reasons ("fear of not doing well academically" being the biggest) and not "acting white": http://www.tc.columbia.edu/students/see/events/Darity_et_al_Understanding_Burden_Acting_White.pdf http://www.tc.columbia.edu/students/see/events/Darity_et_al_... Cook and Ludwig as well found that "acting white" was not much of a factor in academic perforamnce: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291520-6688%28199721%2916:2%3C256::AID-PAM4%3E3.0.CO;2-H/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291520-66... I had quoted from two other papers by Erika White and Roland Fryer (who is a proponent of the "acting white" hypothesis but had to adjust his definition to show any trends) but those links are dead now.

btrautsc 13y ago

as a white male who grew up in the south, thank you for writing this intelligently and highlighting these issues. its not a race problem, its a cultural problem. Political Correctness prevents us from collectively helping the predominantly black victims of a large sub-culture of black America that celebrates crime, dehumanizes women and gays, views educational/career achievement as betrayal of black identity, and tolerate men who willingly abandon their families.

throwaway_a 13y ago
Here comes my throwaway account for opinions that I suspect sway _WAY OUT_ of HN's comfort zone but needs to be said. I think the term "black culture" is in itself a problem because it blames the victim. The term "culture" makes people think it's something that a group of people chose for themselves. "black culture" isn't the same as "asian culture" or "irish culture". This thing we're all calling "black culture" is the result of slavery and continued racism in America. These are people who had their identity(African culture) ripped from them and left in a world of suffering and oppression. The result is what you see today. If I had a magicwand that could go back in time and remove the whole slavery thing and today's casual & institutionalized racism, you wouldn't be seeing the problems black communities have today. At least it wouldn't be anymore than any other group.
- jessedhillon 13y ago
  It's a sad place where someone has to create a sock puppet to say "I think slavery had complicated, long-term cultural effects which are often dismissed without a second look, and I think they bear closer inspection."
  - throwaway_a 13y ago
    Indeed. Obama's speech speaks right to it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHBdZWbncXI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHBdZWbncXI Everyone, including(maybe even especially) black americans, should watch this speech. Anyone who feels Obama is wrong after watching the video should closely examine themselves for why that is and what beliefs they carry that the speech conflicts with.

ihnorton 13y ago

Citing violent crime statistics as proof of a "cultural problem" without any regressors is not particularly helpful. What are the relevant demography-adjusted statistics? There are certainly some (edit: sub-)cultural aspects, but every culture has some aspects of the negative traits you cite (e.g. most people tend to disdain out-group achievement). These traits are often drastically accentuated by poverty. In the case of black Americans, doubly so by the compounding effects of high urbanization levels.

newnewnew 13y ago
The difference in criminal activity between blacks and other American subgroups is so large that it is hard to imagine any regressions making much of a difference. Black males are 6% of the population and commit 53% of the murders, more than the other 94% of the population combined. Keep in mind that there are more poor whites than total blacks in the country, but the black crime numbers are higher than the total white crime numbers. Finding the root causes of the disparity would be a fascinating sociological challenge, if we had the courage to pursue it.

newnewnew 13y ago

There's enough of a genetic difference between subpopulations that if you spit in a cup and ship it to 23andMe, they can tell you where your ancestors came from. Also, there's enough of a difference so that if your ancestors aren't from West Africa, you'll never win an Olympic medal in sprinting[1]. FWIW, people that study population genetics sound shockingly racist. Science is science, whether or not we want it to be. [1] http://m.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/08/the-urgency-and-the-challenge-of-connecting-sports-race-and-genetics/278345/ http://m.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/08/the-u...