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Is segregation really the appropriate word here? Separation of the races is coded into our genes and happens naturally without any malicious intent too. It's no

by hedgew 13y ago

Is segregation really the appropriate word here? Separation of the races is coded into our genes and happens naturally without any malicious intent too. It's not much different from the fact that all of us prefer to surround ourselves with people who are similar to ourselves, usually in terms of thinking, hobbies, and interests. Physical attributes influence us as well, whether it's bikers and leather jackets or punks and black spiked clothes. In evolutionary biology this is referred to as "kinship". Not to say that racism isn't worth fighting against, but the more free our societies become the more people on average will follow their natural instincts. A non-racial example of this is Norway, which is likely the most gender equal country in the world, but has also extremely skewed gender distributions in professions such as engineering and nursing; with almost only men in engineering, and women in nursing, despite massive attempts to balance the situation. This could be easily misinterpreted and claimed as evidence that Norway does not respect gender equality, but in fact it's more likely evidence of the opposite! People in Norway are more free to pursue what makes them happy. When we use terms like "segregation" for cases where it might actually be just "separation", we risk causing unnecessary hatred and overblown illusions of racism - misleading us from what actually matters: freedom and equality.

sophacles 13y ago
Can you point to sources that answer any of these questions: * What mechanism does this racial separation take? * What sort of evidence shows that skin color or other ethnic identifiers in genetics are the thing that causes tribal separation vs them just serving as a simple proxy to more complicated factors? * What explanations of exigent factors are there... for example why are there black and hispanic republicans, or white members of traditionally "black gangs". How do these less common (but not rare) group membership issues override the claimed genetic selection? * What genetic factors explain the fracturing of groups within groups of seemingly genetically similar (at least on a racial/ethinc level) people? The claim made here doesn't actually answer any of those questions - I'm not sure the validity of "separation of races is coded in our genes" makes sense given the scenarios highlighted in my questions.
- pessimizer 13y ago
  Why bother with research when everything can be explained by the natural tendencies of the blood? Research just perpetuates racism by allowing for the possibility that it may exist.
  - sophacles 13y ago
    I don't understand your comment, can you expand?
- hedgew 13y ago
  >What mechanism does this racial separation take? It's not racial separation. It's all attraction in general. Like attracts like. Hackers tend to like other hackers. Race is simply one factor that affects us. Being aware of this can help you avoid racism. If you don't recognize that your brain tends to prefer people who are similar to you, you're more likely to accidentally discriminate others. >What sort of evidence shows that skin color or other ethnic identifiers in genetics are the thing that causes tribal separation vs them just serving as a simple proxy to more complicated factors? The real extent of its significance is impossible to say, but based on these maps, it's obvious that such separation happens. The lack of any legislation in the US that requires people of certain race to segregate means that it has to be caused by other factors. >What explanations of exigent factors are there... for example why are there black and hispanic republicans, or white members of traditionally "black gangs". How do these less common (but not rare) group membership issues override the claimed genetic selection? The fact that there are black republicans is only evidence that race does not limit people into any certain categories. >What genetic factors explain the fracturing of groups within groups of seemingly genetically similar (at least on a racial/ethinc level) people? Why do brothers and sisters fight? Even if you're from the same family, you're not immune to conflict. Inarguably, family members are on average closer to each other than non-family members. I really doubt race is such a significant factor that it would make us immune to conflict. If you really get down to it, we're all basically identical and we still fight all the time. That's the real stupidity. If you want to learn more, you can start with evolutionary psychology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology We really don't know understand ourselves that well yet, but it's obvious that we discriminate each other. It's important to understand why, so we can become better.
jccalhoun 13y ago
"Separation of the races is coded into our genes" What? How so? "Physical attributes influence us as well" But which physical attributes matter and which don't is cultural. I'm tall. I don't only or even mostly hang around other tall people. I'm left handed. I don't hang out with left handed people. "but has also extremely skewed gender distributions in professions such as engineering and nursing; with almost only men in engineering, and women in nursing, despite massive attempts to balance the situation. This could be easily misinterpreted and claimed as evidence that Norway does not respect gender equality, but in fact it's more likely evidence of the opposite! People in Norway are more free to pursue what makes them happy." Or gender stereotypes which predated attempts at gender equality still persist and encourage people to think that certain jobs will make them happier than others even though this may not be true.
eevee 13y ago
Unless it's the norm for people to cross-reference the races of all their potential neighbors before deciding on a house, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that the issue is a little more complicated than who sits with who at lunch. A much more likely factor is your socioeconomic status (which is, granted, also related to your career), and race/class are not at all proportional in the US. > People in Norway are more free to pursue what makes _them_ happy. And why does engineering make men happy but women not? Put another way: are there women who are being made _unhappy_ with engineering? And vice versa for nursing? Is that not worth speculating upon and addressing, rather than taking for granted that the penis is the part of the brain responsible for enjoying math?

by hedgew 13y ago

sophacles 13y ago

Can you point to sources that answer any of these questions: * What mechanism does this racial separation take? * What sort of evidence shows that skin color or other ethnic identifiers in genetics are the thing that causes tribal separation vs them just serving as a simple proxy to more complicated factors? * What explanations of exigent factors are there... for example why are there black and hispanic republicans, or white members of traditionally "black gangs". How do these less common (but not rare) group membership issues override the claimed genetic selection? * What genetic factors explain the fracturing of groups within groups of seemingly genetically similar (at least on a racial/ethinc level) people? The claim made here doesn't actually answer any of those questions - I'm not sure the validity of "separation of races is coded in our genes" makes sense given the scenarios highlighted in my questions.

pessimizer 13y ago
Why bother with research when everything can be explained by the natural tendencies of the blood? Research just perpetuates racism by allowing for the possibility that it may exist.
- sophacles 13y ago
  I don't understand your comment, can you expand?
hedgew 13y ago
>What mechanism does this racial separation take? It's not racial separation. It's all attraction in general. Like attracts like. Hackers tend to like other hackers. Race is simply one factor that affects us. Being aware of this can help you avoid racism. If you don't recognize that your brain tends to prefer people who are similar to you, you're more likely to accidentally discriminate others. >What sort of evidence shows that skin color or other ethnic identifiers in genetics are the thing that causes tribal separation vs them just serving as a simple proxy to more complicated factors? The real extent of its significance is impossible to say, but based on these maps, it's obvious that such separation happens. The lack of any legislation in the US that requires people of certain race to segregate means that it has to be caused by other factors. >What explanations of exigent factors are there... for example why are there black and hispanic republicans, or white members of traditionally "black gangs". How do these less common (but not rare) group membership issues override the claimed genetic selection? The fact that there are black republicans is only evidence that race does not limit people into any certain categories. >What genetic factors explain the fracturing of groups within groups of seemingly genetically similar (at least on a racial/ethinc level) people? Why do brothers and sisters fight? Even if you're from the same family, you're not immune to conflict. Inarguably, family members are on average closer to each other than non-family members. I really doubt race is such a significant factor that it would make us immune to conflict. If you really get down to it, we're all basically identical and we still fight all the time. That's the real stupidity. If you want to learn more, you can start with evolutionary psychology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology We really don't know understand ourselves that well yet, but it's obvious that we discriminate each other. It's important to understand why, so we can become better.

jccalhoun 13y ago

"Separation of the races is coded into our genes" What? How so? "Physical attributes influence us as well" But which physical attributes matter and which don't is cultural. I'm tall. I don't only or even mostly hang around other tall people. I'm left handed. I don't hang out with left handed people. "but has also extremely skewed gender distributions in professions such as engineering and nursing; with almost only men in engineering, and women in nursing, despite massive attempts to balance the situation. This could be easily misinterpreted and claimed as evidence that Norway does not respect gender equality, but in fact it's more likely evidence of the opposite! People in Norway are more free to pursue what makes them happy." Or gender stereotypes which predated attempts at gender equality still persist and encourage people to think that certain jobs will make them happier than others even though this may not be true.

eevee 13y ago

Unless it's the norm for people to cross-reference the races of all their potential neighbors before deciding on a house, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that the issue is a little more complicated than who sits with who at lunch. A much more likely factor is your socioeconomic status (which is, granted, also related to your career), and race/class are not at all proportional in the US. > People in Norway are more free to pursue what makes _them_ happy. And why does engineering make men happy but women not? Put another way: are there women who are being made _unhappy_ with engineering? And vice versa for nursing? Is that not worth speculating upon and addressing, rather than taking for granted that the penis is the part of the brain responsible for enjoying math?