4 ms·

Ok, so maybe "extremely" was a bit much. In my defense I think leaving is much simpler at this point than hoping that the current course of politics and public

Ok, so maybe "extremely" was a bit much. In my defense I think leaving is much simpler at this point than hoping that the current course of politics and public sentiment in the US will change. > 1) Barriers to work and emigration While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect -- once other countries begin to catch on that well educated, highly trained Americans are looking to leave, it will likely become easier to do so. > 2) Language barriers One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non-verbally. Two, it might take years to become conversational in a language, but probably only a handful of months to get good enough to do the daily shopping. Three...what everyone else has said: if you know English, there are very few places in the world where you'll ever be completely unable to communicate with someone. > 3) A lot of us have family support systems that aren't easy to give up Yeah, I understand completely ;-)... My mother was born in the same house in Switzerland where my grandfather and his brothers and sisters grew up. My great-uncle lived in that same house until the day he died, and my great-aunts still live in the same village to this day. I can only imagine how hard it was for my grandfather and grandmother to give all that up and move their three children to America in the '50s, but they truly believed, at the time, that it was worth it. At the same time, while I do have family where I live now, I also had to leave behind a large family in the US. Airline tickets are expensive, but manageable for at least once yearly visits. Video chat is all but ubiquitous. Time zones differences are the hardest to manage, but still doable (http://everytimezone.com/ http://everytimezone.com/ helps, even though they still don't have my time zone). I don't like that I now feel like I had to leave, though I am very glad that I did leave. Living in another country, even if only temporarily, is something I would recommend to anyone in any country. A friend is currently living abroad for a year with his two school-age kids, and he seems to be having a blast so far. It will certainly improve your ability to gain perspective. It may change your outlook on life. Certainly, when I left I still harbored the notion that at some future time I might return...I don't feel that way any longer.

jkhaxxe 13y ago
"well educated, highly trained American's" ironic...
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- jballanc 13y ago
  well, I didn't say trained in what ;-) fixed...thanks
donohoe 13y ago
I think you need to also drop the "simple" part as well. >> 1) Barriers to work and emigration > While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect This is a very non-trivial process so your casual response is a bit hard to swallow. And "domino effect" - I don't think there will be a vast tide of of people, but whatever. >> 2) Language barriers > One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non-verbally So your answer here is great if you are a long-time tourist. Completely impractical in terms of career and work. >> 3) A lot of us have family support systems that aren't easy to give up >Yeah, I understand completely ;-)... No. I don't think you do. I don't think you have a clue. Your family history aside things are much complicated now. For example, its hard enough finding a good school in my own neighborhood (US, english speaking) let along transferring my kids to a new school where they don't speak the language and I have to deal with bureaucracy and hope I'm not screwing up their future. Thats just one quick simple example. Tell a 5 year old she'll never see her friends again and good luck learning French, German, Spanish, or whatever. I really can't believe you replied with "Yeah, I understand completely ;-)..." to that. Seriously. On a final note. I'm Irish and lived (US) here 12 years. My family and I can move to Ireland at any time without worry for some of the larger barriers; visa and language. However to do so is by no means: "extremely simple" or even just "simple". This is HN, you just left a comment, and not expected to write a thesis on the subject. That not your fault, people white-wash what are complicated situations all the time and over-simplify. However your off the cuff glib advice is not particular accurate or helpful. Think before you type. Please.
- werner34 13y ago
  First of all I think that moving to another country because you don't like the US customs might be a bit extreme, but still: >> 2) Language barriers > One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non verbally >>> So your answer here is great if you are a long-time tourist. Completely impractical in terms of career and work. German here, I have worked in Germany and abroad, I worked with an Australian guy working in Germany that spoke about five words of German and that was completely fine ( he did HTML&CSS stuff, a little bit of PHP). Our client was American as well, but he spoke some German I think. (this was 2008ish) My managers Manager in a big consultancy was American and stayed in Germany for a year and a half I think and did just fine with only english. The project lead at the same company was from India, didn't speak a word of German. On my last visit to Berlin I was amazed how many foreigners are there and working in tech at the moment, just the stuff you pick up on the street in Friedrichshain is amazing, people talking about databases and pointers while walking past you on the street in English with all sorts of accents you can imagine. The same is probably true for Amsterdam or Copenhagen, the dutch and the danish are usually excellent with languages.
benjamincburns 13y ago
Disclaimer: there's a lot of generalization here. You've only got half of the domino effect. Sure, it might become easy from a paperwork standpoint, but supply/demand will kick in and wages will drop. In most countries recruiting immigrants is a royal pain in the ass. The main redeeming factor is that in the case where the immigrant's primary motivation is entry into the country (aka a work visa), the recruiter has an excellent negotiating position, especially when the visa in question keeps the immigrant bound to the sponsoring company. Emigrating Americans are a little different, however. We're pretty highly paid in comparison to the rest of the world, and we're usually quite happy to stay in, or return to, our home country if we can't find something that suits us. Couple this with a good education and success in American industry, and this gives us a pretty powerful negotiating position in comparison with other immigrants. We still might not get anything comparable to an American salary, but at least we're able to negotiate rather than just having to accept whatever is handed to us. This changes as soon as you remove the safety net. If there isn't a huge outflow of Americans, those who are emigrating because they truly want to leave America can just bluff their way through it. If there's a huge outflow however, this negotiating position will quickly be lost, at least in the countries to which most Americans would wish to be immigrants.

jkhaxxe 13y ago

"well educated, highly trained American's" ironic...

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jballanc 13y ago
well, I didn't say trained in what ;-) fixed...thanks

donohoe 13y ago

I think you need to also drop the "simple" part as well. >> 1) Barriers to work and emigration > While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect This is a very non-trivial process so your casual response is a bit hard to swallow. And "domino effect" - I don't think there will be a vast tide of of people, but whatever. >> 2) Language barriers > One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non-verbally So your answer here is great if you are a long-time tourist. Completely impractical in terms of career and work. >> 3) A lot of us have family support systems that aren't easy to give up >Yeah, I understand completely ;-)... No. I don't think you do. I don't think you have a clue. Your family history aside things are much complicated now. For example, its hard enough finding a good school in my own neighborhood (US, english speaking) let along transferring my kids to a new school where they don't speak the language and I have to deal with bureaucracy and hope I'm not screwing up their future. Thats just one quick simple example. Tell a 5 year old she'll never see her friends again and good luck learning French, German, Spanish, or whatever. I really can't believe you replied with "Yeah, I understand completely ;-)..." to that. Seriously. On a final note. I'm Irish and lived (US) here 12 years. My family and I can move to Ireland at any time without worry for some of the larger barriers; visa and language. However to do so is by no means: "extremely simple" or even just "simple". This is HN, you just left a comment, and not expected to write a thesis on the subject. That not your fault, people white-wash what are complicated situations all the time and over-simplify. However your off the cuff glib advice is not particular accurate or helpful. Think before you type. Please.

werner34 13y ago
First of all I think that moving to another country because you don't like the US customs might be a bit extreme, but still: >> 2) Language barriers > One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non verbally >>> So your answer here is great if you are a long-time tourist. Completely impractical in terms of career and work. German here, I have worked in Germany and abroad, I worked with an Australian guy working in Germany that spoke about five words of German and that was completely fine ( he did HTML&CSS stuff, a little bit of PHP). Our client was American as well, but he spoke some German I think. (this was 2008ish) My managers Manager in a big consultancy was American and stayed in Germany for a year and a half I think and did just fine with only english. The project lead at the same company was from India, didn't speak a word of German. On my last visit to Berlin I was amazed how many foreigners are there and working in tech at the moment, just the stuff you pick up on the street in Friedrichshain is amazing, people talking about databases and pointers while walking past you on the street in English with all sorts of accents you can imagine. The same is probably true for Amsterdam or Copenhagen, the dutch and the danish are usually excellent with languages.

benjamincburns 13y ago

Disclaimer: there's a lot of generalization here. You've only got half of the domino effect. Sure, it might become easy from a paperwork standpoint, but supply/demand will kick in and wages will drop. In most countries recruiting immigrants is a royal pain in the ass. The main redeeming factor is that in the case where the immigrant's primary motivation is entry into the country (aka a work visa), the recruiter has an excellent negotiating position, especially when the visa in question keeps the immigrant bound to the sponsoring company. Emigrating Americans are a little different, however. We're pretty highly paid in comparison to the rest of the world, and we're usually quite happy to stay in, or return to, our home country if we can't find something that suits us. Couple this with a good education and success in American industry, and this gives us a pretty powerful negotiating position in comparison with other immigrants. We still might not get anything comparable to an American salary, but at least we're able to negotiate rather than just having to accept whatever is handed to us. This changes as soon as you remove the safety net. If there isn't a huge outflow of Americans, those who are emigrating because they truly want to leave America can just bluff their way through it. If there's a huge outflow however, this negotiating position will quickly be lost, at least in the countries to which most Americans would wish to be immigrants.