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"Extremely simple?" There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people. 1) Barriers to work and emigration 2) Language barriers - I know that learning a n

• madaxe 13y ago
  It's extremely simple. You just pull your finger out and do it. I've hopped continent four times so far in my life, and have no intention of stopping. Sure, family, ties, etc., but it's not like you can't visit them, and languages you learn on the go. People are patient. Anyway. Better to go now, than to wait for them to take your passports away.
  • RDeckard 13y ago
    Simple in your context is the act itself without considering all the repercussions that mosburger mentioned.
  • goatforce5 13y ago
    I'm on my fourth country, but only my third continent. But my feet sure are getting itchy of late. Moving country is real easy. It's something everyone should try for at least a year or two.
    • voltagex_ 13y ago
      Heh. I'm in a wheelchair. I still haven't done a completely independent trip overseas, but I'm working on it. I guess that'll be an interesting blog when I do. Real easy is something that only happens when your circumstances fall into some kind of normal bounds.
• jacquesm 13y ago
  1) but everybody can go somewhere 2) immersion will do wonders, and yes, we do speak English in other countries http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysg_FoWOue8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysg_FoWOue8 3) That's a tough one. Emigration isn't for everybody and this is one of the main reasons.
• 300bps 13y ago
  There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people. And one reason why it is extremely simple: if you're not from the U.S. to begin with. Our universities and business culture lure the best of the best from all over the world to the United States. Our draconian travel rules, lack of privacy and "shoot first, ask questions later" laws discourage them from even visiting let alone live here. Look like a Muslim? Suspected jihadist. Detained. Carry more than a few thousands dollars? Drug dealer. Money seized. One of the 99.99% that don't fall into any suspect group? Still suspected. Violate your privacy and freedoms. If I were anything but a natural born citizen, this crap would make me leave in a minute.
  • einhverfr 13y ago
    I am a natural born citizen and have been in Indonesia for 2 years. No complaints.
  • ixacto 13y ago
    As a white natural born citizen not carrying more than $100 on a domestic flight from SEA to SFO, still suspected. The weird part of it was after opting out the TSA thug asked if I wanted to go somewhere private for my government-blessed groping. They must have had the cattle prods and waterboards ready. In all seriousness, if we want the TSA to remain in any way accountable we need to opt-out, and to do it in public with other fellow travelers watching, since there is no telling what happens when they pull you aside in a room for an "enhanced pat down". There is a perverse irony to the whole thing though, if a man decides to sit alone in a park, say to get some coding done outside in the sun this automatically means that you are a pedo and the soccer moms will not hesitate to call the police on you. On the other hand you have actual TSA agents groping kids all the time at the airport (http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-23/news/29466700_1_tsa-spokeswoman-ann-davis-child-pornography-federal-agents http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-23/news/29466700_1_tsa-sp...). They get to wear a uniform and stick their hands down people's pants every goddamn day. Is this what freedom looks like?
• jballanc 13y ago
  Ok, so maybe "extremely" was a bit much. In my defense I think leaving is much simpler at this point than hoping that the current course of politics and public sentiment in the US will change. > 1) Barriers to work and emigration While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect -- once other countries begin to catch on that well educated, highly trained Americans are looking to leave, it will likely become easier to do so. > 2) Language barriers One, you'd be amazed how much you can get across non-verbally. Two, it might take years to become conversational in a language, but probably only a handful of months to get good enough to do the daily shopping. Three...what everyone else has said: if you know English, there are very few places in the world where you'll ever be completely unable to communicate with someone. > 3) A lot of us have family support systems that aren't easy to give up Yeah, I understand completely ;-)... My mother was born in the same house in Switzerland where my grandfather and his brothers and sisters grew up. My great-uncle lived in that same house until the day he died, and my great-aunts still live in the same village to this day. I can only imagine how hard it was for my grandfather and grandmother to give all that up and move their three children to America in the '50s, but they truly believed, at the time, that it was worth it. At the same time, while I do have family where I live now, I also had to leave behind a large family in the US. Airline tickets are expensive, but manageable for at least once yearly visits. Video chat is all but ubiquitous. Time zones differences are the hardest to manage, but still doable (http://everytimezone.com/ http://everytimezone.com/ helps, even though they still don't have my time zone). I don't like that I now feel like I had to leave, though I am very glad that I did leave. Living in another country, even if only temporarily, is something I would recommend to anyone in any country. A friend is currently living abroad for a year with his two school-age kids, and he seems to be having a blast so far. It will certainly improve your ability to gain perspective. It may change your outlook on life. Certainly, when I left I still harbored the notion that at some future time I might return...I don't feel that way any longer.
  • jkhaxxe 13y ago
    "well educated, highly trained American's" ironic...
    • deleted 13y ago
• tinkerdol 13y ago
  May I suggest Germany? At least in regards to your first point, they have recently relaxed barriers. Right now all you need is a four-year degree in order for you to come and look for work for up to 6 months. The chances of anyone reading this finding work are extremely high because there's a shortage of skilled professionals. http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/ http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/ Or, start out studying for a Master's degree first to get comfortable with the country. (Many are taught in English,and would be free. I can recommend certain programs if anyone is interested).
  • FedRegister 13y ago
    I speak enough German to not completely embarrass myself when out in public, and I would like to get my Masters in Computer Science (adding on to my BSc in Computer Science). What programs would you recommend?
    • kleiba 13y ago
      Take a look at this one for instance: http://www.cs.uni-saarland.de/index.php?id=131 http://www.cs.uni-saarland.de/index.php?id=131
    • tinkerdol 13y ago
      Hi, sorry for the late reply! First step is to figure out if you prefer a University or a "Hochshule" -- kind of a foreign concept. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochschule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochschule). The Universities come with more prestige, are larger, offer a wider variety of programs, and are more theoretically based. Therefore if you like computer science theory, taking classes that are math-intensive and could include things like algorithm optimization or building compilers, a University is the clear choice. I have heard only awesome things about TU Munich and TU Darmstadt, although any of the big TU's are probably great. The other option, a Hochschule, is more practice based. Although there will be a mixture of theory and practice at both types, the distinction lies in the emphasis. So if you want to spend more time going straight to writing code, a Hochschule might be the better choice. The other advantages of a Hochschule are that they can be focused on a particular topic (if you are looking for something specific) and they definitely will have smaller classes. This means the professors know you, and you go directly to them for help for which they are often freely available (contrast with a Uni -- usually either go to a TA or have to schedule an appointment with the prof a week ahead through their secretary etc.) I went to a Hochschule and was beyond pleased. There were only 20 people in my whole program so the individual help you can get from Professors was amazing. I actually studied Geoinformatics not Computer Science directly (and therefore searched for that specialty), but I think any of the larger cities will have good Comp Sci M.Sc. possibilities at their Hochschules. In any case you can always visit ahead of time if you can to talk to the professors and sit in on classes. If that's not possible they are also very responsive to calls and emails... they often have preferred quotas for foreign students and love to recruit them. Hope that helps!
• GFischer 13y ago
  You're welcome here in Uruguay... but I think it's a case of "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence". And while we do have liberal emigration policies, the bureaucracy involved cannot be underestimated. There are another things going on that you will find violations of your privacy - Uruguay has a nationwide ID program with fingerprinting (and probably DNA in the near future). We don't have cameras or backscatter machines yet, but the current wave of insecurity will probably make people clamor for them soon - weird statistic: you're ten times more likely to be murdered in the U.S., but almost twenty times more likely to be robbed in Uruguay (I had my laptop stolen last month, for example). The current government isn't likely to cave in easily to the U.S. government, but what about the next one?
  • scottlilly 13y ago
    You're 100% correct about the incredible amount of bureaucracy for getting residency in Uruguay. After almost a year of waiting, and being told it would probably be at least another six months to a year to have my residency completed, I gave up and moved to Paraguay. Getting permanent residency in Paraguay was fairly simple. I completed it in about seven months (partially because I needed to wait for my FBI background check). Other people I know had theirs completed in four to six months. I also find Paraguay to have less government intrusion than Uruguay. Not that Uruguay felt oppressive, but the Uruguayan government is certainly involved in more aspects of business, welfare, regulations, etc., than the Paraguayan government. Most Paraguayans only speak Spanish, or Guarani (the native language). However, if you're working in the tech sector, it isn't unusual to find people who speak a decent amount of English.
    • genwin 13y ago
      Why an FBI background check for residency in Paraguay? Is this Paraguay's version of FBI? Just curious.
      • scottlilly 13y ago
        For most countries that I'm aware of, when you apply for permanent residency you need to submit a criminal background check from your home country. They don't want to let in fugitives or violent criminals. For US citizens, that means the FBI (although you generally have your fingerprints taken by your local police, and send the fingerprint card to the FBI). Since I was already in South America, I had my fingerprints taken at the Paraguayan Interpol office. I sent them to the FBI in the US and waited about 75 days to get my results back. I also had to get fingerprinted for a criminal background check by the Paraguayan police, even though I had never been in Paraguay before. Other than that, the process was fairly simple - a copy of my birth certificate (certified by the Paraguayan consulate in the US), a couple of visa-sized photos, and US$5000 to deposit in a local bank for the duration of my application (to prove I'm financially solvent). If you're married or divorced, you'll also need to have those papers legalized.
• thomasfl 13y ago
  We can speak english in europe. In scandinavia by the age of 10 most kids speak english fluently.
• Ziomislaw 13y ago
  On the other hand, at the moment you are still free to leave. You might not be so lucky if you wait.
  • winter_blue 13y ago
    I see where you're coming from. Reminds one of "refuseniks" and modern-day China's queasiness about its people leaving. But there's always going to be more people who want in than out, and I don't think there's ever be point anywhere in the near future in which this is going to change...
• ekidd 13y ago
  2) Language barriers Language is not an overwhelming barrier for a technology professional if approached correctly. Assuming you need to learn a major western European language, a good rule of thumb is 250 hours of work to become sufficiently conversational for shopping and travel, and between 500 and 750 hours to defend an opinion coherently on a day-to-day topic. (For a totally unrelated language, multiply by 4.) You'll still be at a linguistic disadvantage, but you'll be able to pick up the phone and deal with confused customer service representatives or whatever. Real ingrained fluency and an educated vocabulary takes longer, but most people are in excellent shape after a couple of years of immersion and a bunch of reading. On the professional side, most HTLAL readers will be able to find jobs using large amounts of English. French programmers, for example, tend to read English fluently, attend talks in English (even at French conferences), and write some fraction of their code in English. I learned this while trying to improve my technical French—I went shopping for French programming books, French programming podcasts, etc., and I would up finding (a) very few technical books, (b) French programming news aggregators with 60% of the links in English, (c) French programming conferences where every single speaker spoke English, and (d) lots of very friendly French programmers with English skills ranging from serviceable to excellent. If you want to live in another country for a while, don't let language be the factor that stops you.
• DamnYuppie 13y ago
  Everyone who is in the USA and is not a Native American had ancestors who left where they were from. Often not under ideal circumstances, there where no guaranteed jobs waiting for anyone over here, just the opportunity for something better.
  • pquerna 13y ago
    Many of my ancestors immigrated to the Americas in the 17th or 18th century. Best case I have something like 4th or 5th cousins in Europe. Not someone I can just drop into their lives.
    • DamnYuppie 13y ago
      I wasn't insinuating that you go back from whence your family came. I was trying to point out that it is in human nature to migrate to somewhere that holds the possibility of a better life. Not knowing the culture or language is not as big of a barrier as people are making it out to be.
      • dragontamer 13y ago
        Not knowing the culture or language is as big of a barrier as people are making it out to be. The #1 concern of someone leaving a country, is whether or not the receiving country is actually a better place. It is absolutely critical to understand the culture of where you're going to, if you expect to evaluate how you're gonna live.
• jpttsn 13y ago
  Simple not easy.
• 6d0debc071 13y ago
  #2 I wouldn't consider that to be a huge barrier, necessarily. The best way to learn a language, and overcome language barriers, is just to move there. Not to wait until you've got the language. Because, honestly? - If you're not speaking it every day, maintaining reasonable fluency is very difficult. You can't get to that sort of skill just putting in a couple of hours here and there in a piecemeal fashion. Even with the best of intentions, how many hours a day do you speak your new language? The same factors that work against you in your own country work for you in another's though: It's not that hard to learn a new one if your old one is not particularly dominant in your life. When you, by necessity, go from practising a few hours a week to 12-15 hours every day; while being exposed to excellent speakers of the language, while being heavily incentivised to advance (because, hey, if you don't you'll be lonely and vulnerable) ; you get better at what you're doing very quickly. So, I wouldn't be too bothered about getting the language particularly nailed down before moving somewhere - provided, of course, you don't immediately need to be working or something. If you do, then hiring a tutor and drilling the basics of the language in first is a good idea - you can get vastly superior results that way than by taking classes with others (who may not be as serious about it as you.)
• ksrm 13y ago
  >hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras? The vast majority of CCTV cameras in the UK are privately owned, on private property. What is the problem here? I don't know where this "surveillance state" idea came from but it's largely a myth.
  • seabee 13y ago
    It is particularly amusing because most times the people complaining about this strongly advocate the freedom to do what you like on your own property, without which there would be no CCTV cameras.
  • coldtea 13y ago
    That leaves another "vast" amount of cameras that are public -- in thousands of public spaces. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
• hrktb 13y ago
  To jballanc's credit I think it really is extremly simple in theory, if you are OK with the excrucingly expensive route: 1) Barriers to work and emigration Not if you have enough money or a high enough level of education and income. Paying a lawyer to iron out some problems can help avoiding some traps too. 2) Language barriers These can be overcome, but not having to deal with a lot of menu details in your life (i.e "how to apply for family aid with the new flat I am trying to rent"), going to places that have english speaking staff, doing as much as you can online etc. simplifies it a lot. But it costs more overall. 3) A lot of us have family support systems This is the most difficult point, and no amount of money will resolve some problems (adaptation, home sickness, culture etc). But others like schooling your kids in an international school (it's about 8000~10000 dollars a year at least I think), have someone speaking your language take care of them etc. eases things a lot. I don't think this kind of money can be taken for granted, and only a smallish portion of people are at these levels of wealth[1]. It was just to bring a point about how "simple" changing a country could be depending on your means. [1] Otherwise if you can get a company or country to pay for these expenses, it's great for you. BTW I'm far from having that kind of money, so it's just hearsay and personal research.
• grimborg 13y ago
  There are many international IT companies in Europe where English is the lingua franca (speaking from my experience in Catalonia and the Netherlands). Learning the language of the country is a welcome courtesy, but it is often not a requirement.
• mdellabitta 13y ago
  Just FYI, you mean 'immigration,' not 'emigration'.