7 ms·

I used to -- and still do, to some effect -- fetishize living in a highrise. I was a suburban kid who grew up in a boring (and, in retrospect, wonderful) house

by jmduke 13y ago

I used to -- and still do, to some effect -- fetishize living in a highrise. I was a suburban kid who grew up in a boring (and, in retrospect, wonderful) house surrounded by other boring houses -- I watched Seinfeld and Frasier, and loved the idea of living in an apartment complex, where prospective friends and plotlines were only yards and floors away. Looking at Michael's pictures, I'm struck with a particular sense of envy -- I realize, knowing what I know about median Hong Kong quality of living, that its likely unpleasant to live in these conditions. And yet, the sheer mathematics of it -- twenty thousand tenants divided by sixty floors is around three hundred per floor -- makes me smile at so many imaginary hallway interactions.

spacehunt 13y ago
Grass is always greener on the other side. Living in Hong Kong right now I do miss living in a detached house in suburban Melbourne. A lot. And no, we rarely see anyone else in the hallway, and even when we do we don't say hi to each other.
- meric 13y ago
  You can always start. My grand mother who lives there talks to everyone on the elevator.
  - olalonde 13y ago
    Or use Wechat's "look around" feature. I don't recall if it is widely used in Hong Kong but in China I have met a few neighbors this way.
- vacri 13y ago
  Travelling in the US, this Australian found that Americans are far more likely to start a conversation with a total stranger, apropos of nothing. It's so rare here, but pretty commonplace there. So... just try saying 'hello' - it may just be cultural reticence on your part.
- prawn 13y ago
  Whenever I pass someone in a quiet street and there's often that awkward moment, I think about the thousands of years we've evolved in smaller tribes and communities. And how poorly we are prepared as animals for purposeless encounters with others.
  - VLM 13y ago
    I'm not sure if this makes sense from a scaling perspective looking at the ratio of perimeter to area as size scales up, we are now far more likely to only casually meet members of our own "tribe" than ever before in history. Think of multiple tribes "sharing" a watering hole or a hunting ground or simply plain old common borders. I think we're pretty well prepared for it, as long as we're not at war we seem to have a pretty good ability to be casual, ignore them, yet unconsciously keep an eye on them and if they start acting weird (about to stab us in the back).
    - delluminatus 13y ago
      Cities aren't "tribes," they're far too large. In fact, they're tribe destroyers. From an evolutionary perspective, interaction with other people was meaningful: either you were interacting with a tribesman (basically a member of extended family) or with an outsider. In neither case was "indifference" a desirable response (outsiders evoke competitive fear or interest). In a city you interact with so many different people on a daily basis that almost all human interactions are, by necessity, marked by indifference. We're not designed to simply ignore people. However, more and more that's what we are required to do.
      - VLM 13y ago
        I carefully considered your position and partially agree with some aspects of it. If you are correct, that would imply that over a very long term, the total level of "drama" would be decreasing over time in the average life as city size increases etc. I disagree. Also a decline in actual drama below some instinctual drama-thermostat in the brain would result in increasing levels of interest over the centuries in artificial drama (plays, gossip, TV, social media, maybe religion). I'm not seeing that either. I would theorize that changing technological tools for artificial drama have changed the method of stimulation but not the quantity, although I don't have enough data to know if I'm right or wrong. Its rare in the social sciences to have the chance for a hard numbers science experiment like this, which makes this topic interesting. In theory, for example, over the past generation, interest in traditional cultural plays in China should have exploded upwards thru several orders of magnitude. On the other side, there has been explosive growth (perhaps a fad?) in social media. I would also make a very small correction to your last line: "However, more and more that's what we are required to do." should have two words added: "However, more and more that's what we are required to appear to do." For example, I would theorize based on this that the total amount of "checking out the ladies" is constant among males of a similar hormonal level across all cultures, what varies is the resulting behavior after paying attention (some places catcalling is the law of the land, some places no one whistles, ditto staring, and many other reactions, it only varies in male reaction, not in the quantity of male attention) I would agree that the prevailing behavior in the west is to pretend to ignore, while paying very close attention. Don't make eye contact with the pan handler but keep an eye on him in the unlikely event that he pulls a knife. She wore that so you'd check her out, duh, but not to make you outright stare, duh. Pretending to ignore is somewhat different than actually ignoring.
gotrecruit 13y ago
i assure you, from personal experience, you are right that it's unpleasant to live in these conditions. and whatever hallway interactions you have with neighbors is either unpleasant, or neutral (as in, you smile and move on, no conversation). and if you're used to living in a nice house in a suburban neighborhood, imagine a 3-bedroom apartment squeezed into a space that's approximately your living room. i once lived in one of these apartments, and the kitchen is literally only big enough for one person to stand inside and the bedrooms are basically dorm rooms. unless you're very wealthy, then you might be able to live in an apartment or condo that's actually spacious and nice but then you'd be looking to pay a ridiculous amount of rent money.
- spin 13y ago
  I live in an apartment in Tokyo (not any near as cramped as these places, though). I've stayed at guest houses in Hong Kong and Tokyo. I love it. I don't miss living in a house at all. (I sure don't miss mowing the lawn or shoveling snow off the sidewalk, either.) I used to romanticize about these kinds of places. I explored them a bit and I liked it. (These days, I'm living in a fairly normal apartment, though. Normal job, normal life.) I've stayed at guesthouses where I've had lots of socializing with the neighbors. I've had some fun times (and some not-so-fun times...) If you're curious, give it shot!...
hannibal5 13y ago
https://www.google.com/search?q=hong+kong+living+in+cages&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=hong+kong+living+in+cages&tb... One apartment may be filled with workers living in small cages stacked three or four high.
alanho 13y ago
25 years ago i used to live in public housing in HK where there are around ~60 apartments (~400 sq. ft) each floor. hallway interactions are common, we even leave the door open so people can have a quick chat when neighbor passes by. Nowadays more people live in private housing, usually 8-10 apartments each floor. And people hardly know the last name of their neighbors. Not knowing who lives next door is the norm in HK private/subsidized housing now...
briandon 13y ago
Spacehunt and gotrecruit are on the money. Even if you spend 3-4x more than the average household's entire monthly income so that you live in a flat that's almost got half as much usable space as a typical suburban home in, for example, the US, you've got your neighbors to contend with. The exorbitant rent or mortgage that you're paying only buys you a bit of extra elbow room (likely translated into more bedrooms and a coffin-like chamber into which your domestic helper, i.e. maid, is supposed to be banished at the end of their workday) and a better address. That money doesn't translate into a higher quality of construction. Everything is built as cheaply as possible and buildings begin to degrade pretty much as soon as they're put up for sale. There's no insulation and floors/ceilings are very thin. Upstairs neighbor's child practicing piano at midnight ahead of a piano exam that they have to pass so that they can cram another cert for another activity into their portfolio for school applications? Their dog(s), which they keep in a cage or exile to the balcony at night, barking or whining? Deal with it. Down-the-hall neighbor having an epic, all-night mahjong tournament and the neverending ka-lakka-lakka-lak-lak sound of the tiles driving you bonkers? Watching a football/soccer match on their TV and bellowing every time that "their" team scores a goal? Deal with it. Condensation from someone's air conditioner dripping from a great height and impacting one of your air conditioners (or a nearby neighbor's) with a loud twang! every few seconds? Deal with it. Then, there are the sidewalks. Thirty-floor (and taller) highrises are the norm, but the sidewalks tend to be the same size as the ones in a low-density suburb ... or smaller. At peak periods, trying to navigate the sidewalks without getting elbowed or shoved into a railing or wall or (worst case) off the curb and into traffic, is an adventure. At off-peak periods, you'll play air conditioner drip Frogger and try to get to your destination without being slimed with a melange of condensation, pigeon poop, and algae/mold/bacteria by inferring a safe path from the locations of puddles on the sidewalk. Aiyah! Look out! Here comes a guy pushing a metal cart laden with 3-liter cans of corn oil barreling towards you down the sidewalk!
- kamaal 13y ago
  My dad always tells me any apartments look glossy only in their first year of construction. After that, things start to degrade pretty quickly. Start with paint, then window glasses and then leaks and then what not. All the best trying to get every one to pay up to fix the issues related to the general apartment building. It never happens. Unless you are living in a super luxury apartment, I see high rise residential buildings as nothing more than modern day slums and ghettos. The biggest annoyances you come across are the ones related to privacy and hygiene.
bane 13y ago
I always think the opposite way, that getting lost in the anonymity of the crowds is highly appealing to me.
rwhitman 13y ago
In my experience the larger the apartment building you live in, the less likely that your neighbors will acknowledge you. Unless its a condo/coop where there are association meetings, and then everyone is in your face all the time. The most social place I've ever lived was a fenced community of detached 1BR bungalows in Los Angeles. Most likely because it housed primarily unemployed actors who spent most of their day hanging out in communal spaces chatting. I think this has a lot to do with the perception of life in TV shows, they write from what they know, and what they know is living in LA. Seinfeld and Frasier have much more in common with life in small Hollywood low-rise apartments than they do with life in the type of high-density high-rise that you find in NYC...

by jmduke 13y ago

spacehunt 13y ago

Grass is always greener on the other side. Living in Hong Kong right now I do miss living in a detached house in suburban Melbourne. A lot. And no, we rarely see anyone else in the hallway, and even when we do we don't say hi to each other.

meric 13y ago
You can always start. My grand mother who lives there talks to everyone on the elevator.
- olalonde 13y ago
  Or use Wechat's "look around" feature. I don't recall if it is widely used in Hong Kong but in China I have met a few neighbors this way.
vacri 13y ago
Travelling in the US, this Australian found that Americans are far more likely to start a conversation with a total stranger, apropos of nothing. It's so rare here, but pretty commonplace there. So... just try saying 'hello' - it may just be cultural reticence on your part.
prawn 13y ago
Whenever I pass someone in a quiet street and there's often that awkward moment, I think about the thousands of years we've evolved in smaller tribes and communities. And how poorly we are prepared as animals for purposeless encounters with others.
- VLM 13y ago
  I'm not sure if this makes sense from a scaling perspective looking at the ratio of perimeter to area as size scales up, we are now far more likely to only casually meet members of our own "tribe" than ever before in history. Think of multiple tribes "sharing" a watering hole or a hunting ground or simply plain old common borders. I think we're pretty well prepared for it, as long as we're not at war we seem to have a pretty good ability to be casual, ignore them, yet unconsciously keep an eye on them and if they start acting weird (about to stab us in the back).
  - delluminatus 13y ago
    Cities aren't "tribes," they're far too large. In fact, they're tribe destroyers. From an evolutionary perspective, interaction with other people was meaningful: either you were interacting with a tribesman (basically a member of extended family) or with an outsider. In neither case was "indifference" a desirable response (outsiders evoke competitive fear or interest). In a city you interact with so many different people on a daily basis that almost all human interactions are, by necessity, marked by indifference. We're not designed to simply ignore people. However, more and more that's what we are required to do.
    - VLM 13y ago
      I carefully considered your position and partially agree with some aspects of it. If you are correct, that would imply that over a very long term, the total level of "drama" would be decreasing over time in the average life as city size increases etc. I disagree. Also a decline in actual drama below some instinctual drama-thermostat in the brain would result in increasing levels of interest over the centuries in artificial drama (plays, gossip, TV, social media, maybe religion). I'm not seeing that either. I would theorize that changing technological tools for artificial drama have changed the method of stimulation but not the quantity, although I don't have enough data to know if I'm right or wrong. Its rare in the social sciences to have the chance for a hard numbers science experiment like this, which makes this topic interesting. In theory, for example, over the past generation, interest in traditional cultural plays in China should have exploded upwards thru several orders of magnitude. On the other side, there has been explosive growth (perhaps a fad?) in social media. I would also make a very small correction to your last line: "However, more and more that's what we are required to do." should have two words added: "However, more and more that's what we are required to appear to do." For example, I would theorize based on this that the total amount of "checking out the ladies" is constant among males of a similar hormonal level across all cultures, what varies is the resulting behavior after paying attention (some places catcalling is the law of the land, some places no one whistles, ditto staring, and many other reactions, it only varies in male reaction, not in the quantity of male attention) I would agree that the prevailing behavior in the west is to pretend to ignore, while paying very close attention. Don't make eye contact with the pan handler but keep an eye on him in the unlikely event that he pulls a knife. She wore that so you'd check her out, duh, but not to make you outright stare, duh. Pretending to ignore is somewhat different than actually ignoring.

gotrecruit 13y ago

i assure you, from personal experience, you are right that it's unpleasant to live in these conditions. and whatever hallway interactions you have with neighbors is either unpleasant, or neutral (as in, you smile and move on, no conversation). and if you're used to living in a nice house in a suburban neighborhood, imagine a 3-bedroom apartment squeezed into a space that's approximately your living room. i once lived in one of these apartments, and the kitchen is literally only big enough for one person to stand inside and the bedrooms are basically dorm rooms. unless you're very wealthy, then you might be able to live in an apartment or condo that's actually spacious and nice but then you'd be looking to pay a ridiculous amount of rent money.

spin 13y ago
I live in an apartment in Tokyo (not any near as cramped as these places, though). I've stayed at guest houses in Hong Kong and Tokyo. I love it. I don't miss living in a house at all. (I sure don't miss mowing the lawn or shoveling snow off the sidewalk, either.) I used to romanticize about these kinds of places. I explored them a bit and I liked it. (These days, I'm living in a fairly normal apartment, though. Normal job, normal life.) I've stayed at guesthouses where I've had lots of socializing with the neighbors. I've had some fun times (and some not-so-fun times...) If you're curious, give it shot!...

hannibal5 13y ago

https://www.google.com/search?q=hong+kong+living+in+cages&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=hong+kong+living+in+cages&tb... One apartment may be filled with workers living in small cages stacked three or four high.

alanho 13y ago

25 years ago i used to live in public housing in HK where there are around ~60 apartments (~400 sq. ft) each floor. hallway interactions are common, we even leave the door open so people can have a quick chat when neighbor passes by. Nowadays more people live in private housing, usually 8-10 apartments each floor. And people hardly know the last name of their neighbors. Not knowing who lives next door is the norm in HK private/subsidized housing now...

briandon 13y ago

Spacehunt and gotrecruit are on the money. Even if you spend 3-4x more than the average household's entire monthly income so that you live in a flat that's almost got half as much usable space as a typical suburban home in, for example, the US, you've got your neighbors to contend with. The exorbitant rent or mortgage that you're paying only buys you a bit of extra elbow room (likely translated into more bedrooms and a coffin-like chamber into which your domestic helper, i.e. maid, is supposed to be banished at the end of their workday) and a better address. That money doesn't translate into a higher quality of construction. Everything is built as cheaply as possible and buildings begin to degrade pretty much as soon as they're put up for sale. There's no insulation and floors/ceilings are very thin. Upstairs neighbor's child practicing piano at midnight ahead of a piano exam that they have to pass so that they can cram another cert for another activity into their portfolio for school applications? Their dog(s), which they keep in a cage or exile to the balcony at night, barking or whining? Deal with it. Down-the-hall neighbor having an epic, all-night mahjong tournament and the neverending ka-lakka-lakka-lak-lak sound of the tiles driving you bonkers? Watching a football/soccer match on their TV and bellowing every time that "their" team scores a goal? Deal with it. Condensation from someone's air conditioner dripping from a great height and impacting one of your air conditioners (or a nearby neighbor's) with a loud twang! every few seconds? Deal with it. Then, there are the sidewalks. Thirty-floor (and taller) highrises are the norm, but the sidewalks tend to be the same size as the ones in a low-density suburb ... or smaller. At peak periods, trying to navigate the sidewalks without getting elbowed or shoved into a railing or wall or (worst case) off the curb and into traffic, is an adventure. At off-peak periods, you'll play air conditioner drip Frogger and try to get to your destination without being slimed with a melange of condensation, pigeon poop, and algae/mold/bacteria by inferring a safe path from the locations of puddles on the sidewalk. Aiyah! Look out! Here comes a guy pushing a metal cart laden with 3-liter cans of corn oil barreling towards you down the sidewalk!

kamaal 13y ago
My dad always tells me any apartments look glossy only in their first year of construction. After that, things start to degrade pretty quickly. Start with paint, then window glasses and then leaks and then what not. All the best trying to get every one to pay up to fix the issues related to the general apartment building. It never happens. Unless you are living in a super luxury apartment, I see high rise residential buildings as nothing more than modern day slums and ghettos. The biggest annoyances you come across are the ones related to privacy and hygiene.

bane 13y ago

I always think the opposite way, that getting lost in the anonymity of the crowds is highly appealing to me.

rwhitman 13y ago

In my experience the larger the apartment building you live in, the less likely that your neighbors will acknowledge you. Unless its a condo/coop where there are association meetings, and then everyone is in your face all the time. The most social place I've ever lived was a fenced community of detached 1BR bungalows in Los Angeles. Most likely because it housed primarily unemployed actors who spent most of their day hanging out in communal spaces chatting. I think this has a lot to do with the perception of life in TV shows, they write from what they know, and what they know is living in LA. Seinfeld and Frasier have much more in common with life in small Hollywood low-rise apartments than they do with life in the type of high-density high-rise that you find in NYC...