4 ms·

> Why would you want to continue to live in a country that seems to make things like this routine? Honest answer to the honest question: I want to live in this

by jlgreco 13y ago

> Why would you want to continue to live in a country that seems to make things like this routine? Honest answer to the honest question: I want to live in this country[1] because I consider it my home. The government? That is the part I don't care for. I feel absolutely no loyalty to it. When another victor inevitably starts writing history books, those books will not be kind to the modern American government. [1] Where "country" is both a chunk of geography, a loose-knit culture (perhaps best described as a culture of loose-knit cultures), and the place where most of the individual people I like also live.

ekianjo 13y ago
> I feel absolutely no loyalty to it. Yet you are enforced to be loyal to it. Try not paying your taxes, for example, and they will deprive you of your freedom.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  I am loyal to it like somebody is loyal to a mugger. If I don't give them money, people with guns will take it. I would say this is better described as "obedience" than "loyalty". Should I move to another country and pay a different government my tax money instead? Arguably. It is not clear to me which government I should instead be forced to pay, and my options are very limited as I am ill-equipped to live in most other countries. Five Eyes rules out the most obvious answers.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    > Should I move to another country and pay a different government my tax money instead? Arguably. I'd say any government which does not have a standing army killing innocent people overseas is a better choice. At least your taxes would then not be used to produce bombs and guns. I agree with you that no country is perfect and you can find flaws in every of them, but still. There are some levels of differences.
- anologwintermut 13y ago
  Taxes pay for roads, schools, police, sewers, water, courts, etc. They are things you consume by living in this country and thing that most people would like to have around. They also pay for the military, the CIA, and evidently things like supporting the gassing of Iran. But they are not enforced loyalty. Moreover, you can get out of paying US taxes. You just have to leave the country, renounce your citizenship, and pay an exit tax (after all, it would be rather absurd to allow someone to profit off the US legal system and business environment and then leave before paying the bill)
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    > But they are not enforced loyalty. I think you are playing with words. The government expects you to pay your taxes. It is counting on your money. On your loyalty to feed them constantly, until you die (and even after, actually). Since people don't wait until guys with guns and uniforms come to their door to pay their taxes, I would say everyone is pretty loyal to the State and do not wait for threats to comply. If that's not loyalty, then I don't know how you call it. And many citizens do think taxes (no matter the amount) are a GOOD thing, and will defend the Right of the State to steal your money in a significant manner. Isn't that loyalty ?
- dfc 13y ago
  All countries enforce loyalty. If I moved to Canada I would be forced to be loyal to the Canadian government. To make matters worse I would also have to swear or affirm an oath of loyalty to some lady and her heirs and successors across the ocean. Are there any countries that do not take punitive actions when citizens decide they do not feel like paying their taxes?
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    > Are there any countries that do not take punitive actions when citizens decide they do not feel like paying their taxes? Probably not, or very few at least, since there is no pure libertarian country example in the world so far. Even though, you may decide where you pay your taxes - depending on how much you agree with the policies of the country where you pay them. You can't keep feeding the Dragon and then complain the day it burns another village with its inhabitants. Don't feed the Dragon in the first place.
    - dfc 13y ago
      You can be a "pure libertarian" and recognize market failures for things like national defense or the need for a system of codification and protection of property rights.
      - ekianjo 13y ago
        > market failures for things like national defense Care to elaborate?
        dfc 13y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_failure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_failure
        lukifer 13y ago
        Markets are a technology; like all technologies, it's important to use the right tool for the job, and to be aware of the surrounding contexts that influence its uses in the real world.
rdl 13y ago
I think history will probably say the US became potentially powerful due to geography (resources and relative safety in the 1800s), as well as technological innovation and relative stability and freedom for a couple hundred years. But then, that WW2 and the Cold War led to becoming an empire, and that once the empire lost a (fairly real, if pointless) external enemy, it started casting about for enemies, and found two: external "terrorists" and any kind of uncertainty or decentralization (i.e. domestic freedom). I'd prefer an American empire to a global caliphate, but that's not really the a likely decision. What is likely is a hegemonic US empire vs. some kind of decentralized system with autonomy and freedom at different levels (individuals retaining a lot, local governments and companies having some, provinces some, nation-states other, regions other, and global some). That would be a pretty clear choice, and I don't think you can say opposing a US empire is opposing the US overall.

by jlgreco 13y ago

ekianjo 13y ago

> I feel absolutely no loyalty to it. Yet you are enforced to be loyal to it. Try not paying your taxes, for example, and they will deprive you of your freedom.

jlgreco 13y ago
I am loyal to it like somebody is loyal to a mugger. If I don't give them money, people with guns will take it. I would say this is better described as "obedience" than "loyalty". Should I move to another country and pay a different government my tax money instead? Arguably. It is not clear to me which government I should instead be forced to pay, and my options are very limited as I am ill-equipped to live in most other countries. Five Eyes rules out the most obvious answers.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  > Should I move to another country and pay a different government my tax money instead? Arguably. I'd say any government which does not have a standing army killing innocent people overseas is a better choice. At least your taxes would then not be used to produce bombs and guns. I agree with you that no country is perfect and you can find flaws in every of them, but still. There are some levels of differences.
anologwintermut 13y ago
Taxes pay for roads, schools, police, sewers, water, courts, etc. They are things you consume by living in this country and thing that most people would like to have around. They also pay for the military, the CIA, and evidently things like supporting the gassing of Iran. But they are not enforced loyalty. Moreover, you can get out of paying US taxes. You just have to leave the country, renounce your citizenship, and pay an exit tax (after all, it would be rather absurd to allow someone to profit off the US legal system and business environment and then leave before paying the bill)
- ekianjo 13y ago
  > But they are not enforced loyalty. I think you are playing with words. The government expects you to pay your taxes. It is counting on your money. On your loyalty to feed them constantly, until you die (and even after, actually). Since people don't wait until guys with guns and uniforms come to their door to pay their taxes, I would say everyone is pretty loyal to the State and do not wait for threats to comply. If that's not loyalty, then I don't know how you call it. And many citizens do think taxes (no matter the amount) are a GOOD thing, and will defend the Right of the State to steal your money in a significant manner. Isn't that loyalty ?
dfc 13y ago
All countries enforce loyalty. If I moved to Canada I would be forced to be loyal to the Canadian government. To make matters worse I would also have to swear or affirm an oath of loyalty to some lady and her heirs and successors across the ocean. Are there any countries that do not take punitive actions when citizens decide they do not feel like paying their taxes?
- ekianjo 13y ago
  > Are there any countries that do not take punitive actions when citizens decide they do not feel like paying their taxes? Probably not, or very few at least, since there is no pure libertarian country example in the world so far. Even though, you may decide where you pay your taxes - depending on how much you agree with the policies of the country where you pay them. You can't keep feeding the Dragon and then complain the day it burns another village with its inhabitants. Don't feed the Dragon in the first place.
  - dfc 13y ago
    You can be a "pure libertarian" and recognize market failures for things like national defense or the need for a system of codification and protection of property rights.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      > market failures for things like national defense Care to elaborate?
      - dfc 13y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_failure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_failure
      - lukifer 13y ago
        Markets are a technology; like all technologies, it's important to use the right tool for the job, and to be aware of the surrounding contexts that influence its uses in the real world.

rdl 13y ago

I think history will probably say the US became potentially powerful due to geography (resources and relative safety in the 1800s), as well as technological innovation and relative stability and freedom for a couple hundred years. But then, that WW2 and the Cold War led to becoming an empire, and that once the empire lost a (fairly real, if pointless) external enemy, it started casting about for enemies, and found two: external "terrorists" and any kind of uncertainty or decentralization (i.e. domestic freedom). I'd prefer an American empire to a global caliphate, but that's not really the a likely decision. What is likely is a hegemonic US empire vs. some kind of decentralized system with autonomy and freedom at different levels (individuals retaining a lot, local governments and companies having some, provinces some, nation-states other, regions other, and global some). That would be a pretty clear choice, and I don't think you can say opposing a US empire is opposing the US overall.