7 ms·

Copy the health care system of any other rich country. They all get about the same results for half the price or less.

dnautics 13y ago
We could kill about 9/10 of the population and get down to their size and ethnic homogeneity, as part of the copying process.
- w1ntermute 13y ago
  I'm not sure why the overall size of the population is relevant here. If it works for countries with populations of 5 million (Norway), 63 million (UK), 82 million (Germany), and 126 million (Japan), I think it's completely reasonable to at least try it in a country of 319 million.
  - dnautics 13y ago
    Ethnic homogeneity is also an issue. If you think that an arab living in france gets the same quality of healthcare as a european french person at the same poverty level, you're kidding yourself. Not that the US doesn't have these problems. Ultimately, different ethnicities get different diseases, too, so the bureaucrats in charge of deciding what gets covered and to what extent are basically institutionalizing racial privilege. However, naive grass-is-greenerism is more of what I was railing against.
    - brohee 13y ago
      As someone that spent quite a bit of time in French hospitals visiting relatives recently, I have no reason whatsoever to think access to care is limited in anyway whether on ethnic or socioeconomic background... Do you care to cite some sources?
    - ucha 13y ago
      That is absolutely false. All French citizens and even foreigners enrolled in the "securite sociale" scheme have access to the same facilities, procedures and doctors. There is no discrimination in the public service. Any claims to the contrary are at best unfamiliarity with the subject if not deliberate misinformation.
      - dnautics 13y ago
        http://eurpub.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/4/361.short http://eurpub.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/4/361.short "The social inequalities in health have endured or even worsened comparatively throughout different social groups since the 1990s.... Health policies mainly promoting equal financial access to healthcare have little chance of abating health inequalities. "
        moocowduckquack 13y ago
        You are severely misrepresenting that study as it is about the backgrounds of people who say they forgo healthcare on money grounds and pointing out that there are other factors other than whether someone can actually afford healthcare that affect whether people think they can afford healthcare. It also appears to not look at ethnicity at all in that study. It is basically saying that it isn't enough to make healthcare available, you also have to get people to use the service in other ways than mere affordability as even if something is affordable a lot of people will still not bother and claim that they think it will be unaffordable. Results: After making adjustments for numerous individual socio-economic and health characteristics, we observed a higher occurrence of reported forgone healthcare among people who have had financial worries during adulthood, a life-course experience of physical, sexual or psychological abuse; who have experienced childhood difficulties; who have expressed a low degree of sickness orientation, a high worry/concern about and a low self-esteem
        dnautics 13y ago
        forget ethnicity for a moment (there is a separate biological argument that is not sociological in nature), although we know what 'socio-economic' is a codeword for. The point is that posters above are saying things like "There is no discrimination in the public service." I can say for sure there is no way that is possible. If there were no discrimination, then there would be no reason why people are systematically avoiding the healthcare system. One ostensible goal of the French system is to rid itself of healthcare inequality. In that aspect it has failed. The numbers show that. And it doesn't matter that, maybe, the problem is 'education' or whatever, because that's still all a part of the state system. I happen to believe the french system is better than the US system (as the US system is right now) but I don't personally believe that it is fundamentally the best system or in any way fundamentally better than a free market system (to include medical charities). But what I think is completely misguided is to think that the French system is absolutely equitable, infallible, or transposable to the US.
    - moocowduckquack 13y ago
      "If you think that an arab living in france gets the same quality of healthcare as a european french person at the same poverty level, you're kidding yourself." Funnily enough, medic in French is an Arabic loanword, toubib. Also, I am not sure how you think the French health system works, but at every level through it there are enough people of Arabic background in it that your idea of there being massive differences in health care for people of Arabic background in France seems unlikely. It is true that there will be instances of racism, however I think that you are pretty far off the mark here in general. "Ultimately, different ethnicities get different diseases, too, so the bureaucrats in charge of deciding what gets covered and to what extent are basically institutionalizing racial privilege." There is some variation in susceptibility to disease between different ethnicities, sure, but there is such a large and established Arabic population in France that it would make no sense for the health service to be acting in the way you are suggesting. Also what particular diseases are you talking about? As far as I am aware there has been so much mixing between Arabic populations and European ones over history that the differences are not really all that great, especially when you look at the differences in care required anyway for two individuals from the same ethnic background. At the end of the day, given that the French health system gets some of the best ratings in the world and that France also has a very large amount of people who are not of European ancestry, it would be very hard for there be a vast gulf in care based on the ancestry of such a sizeable percentage of the population, otherwise France simply would not hold those ratings. Out of interest, how much time have you spent in France? I have been there a few times, some of my family have lived there for several years and I am currently sharing a house with someone French, who is not of European background.
duaneb 13y ago
> Copy the health care system of any other rich country. This is easier said than done. The link between socialism, still a profane political philosophy, and municipal health care is too strong—the time it would take to switch it over is be on the order of election cycles, not years. Granted, we are already on that road, but it's going to be a long time before any mainstream politician embraces it.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  The Boomers will die (of substandard health care) in another decade or so. That will change politics quite a bit.
- rhizome 13y ago
  still a profane political philosophy Absolutely not, and and "socialist" is not the same thing as "socialism" at any rate. The only people who hate the idea are the hardcore capitalists, most notably those who profit from the current regime (industrialists and drama-fed parasites like the media and politicians), but the fact remains that nationalized health care is a feature of pretty much every single country with a higher standard of living than the US.
  - duaneb 13y ago
    > The only people who hate the idea are the hardcore capitalists Well, them and voters.
    - rhizome 13y ago
      Pretty sure voters would like a higher standard of living.

We could kill about 9/10 of the population and get down to their size and ethnic homogeneity, as part of the copying process.

w1ntermute 13y ago
I'm not sure why the overall size of the population is relevant here. If it works for countries with populations of 5 million (Norway), 63 million (UK), 82 million (Germany), and 126 million (Japan), I think it's completely reasonable to at least try it in a country of 319 million.
- dnautics 13y ago
  Ethnic homogeneity is also an issue. If you think that an arab living in france gets the same quality of healthcare as a european french person at the same poverty level, you're kidding yourself. Not that the US doesn't have these problems. Ultimately, different ethnicities get different diseases, too, so the bureaucrats in charge of deciding what gets covered and to what extent are basically institutionalizing racial privilege. However, naive grass-is-greenerism is more of what I was railing against.
  - brohee 13y ago
    As someone that spent quite a bit of time in French hospitals visiting relatives recently, I have no reason whatsoever to think access to care is limited in anyway whether on ethnic or socioeconomic background... Do you care to cite some sources?
  - ucha 13y ago
    That is absolutely false. All French citizens and even foreigners enrolled in the "securite sociale" scheme have access to the same facilities, procedures and doctors. There is no discrimination in the public service. Any claims to the contrary are at best unfamiliarity with the subject if not deliberate misinformation.
    - dnautics 13y ago
      http://eurpub.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/4/361.short http://eurpub.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/4/361.short "The social inequalities in health have endured or even worsened comparatively throughout different social groups since the 1990s.... Health policies mainly promoting equal financial access to healthcare have little chance of abating health inequalities. "
      - moocowduckquack 13y ago
        You are severely misrepresenting that study as it is about the backgrounds of people who say they forgo healthcare on money grounds and pointing out that there are other factors other than whether someone can actually afford healthcare that affect whether people think they can afford healthcare. It also appears to not look at ethnicity at all in that study. It is basically saying that it isn't enough to make healthcare available, you also have to get people to use the service in other ways than mere affordability as even if something is affordable a lot of people will still not bother and claim that they think it will be unaffordable. Results: After making adjustments for numerous individual socio-economic and health characteristics, we observed a higher occurrence of reported forgone healthcare among people who have had financial worries during adulthood, a life-course experience of physical, sexual or psychological abuse; who have experienced childhood difficulties; who have expressed a low degree of sickness orientation, a high worry/concern about and a low self-esteem
        dnautics 13y ago
        forget ethnicity for a moment (there is a separate biological argument that is not sociological in nature), although we know what 'socio-economic' is a codeword for. The point is that posters above are saying things like "There is no discrimination in the public service." I can say for sure there is no way that is possible. If there were no discrimination, then there would be no reason why people are systematically avoiding the healthcare system. One ostensible goal of the French system is to rid itself of healthcare inequality. In that aspect it has failed. The numbers show that. And it doesn't matter that, maybe, the problem is 'education' or whatever, because that's still all a part of the state system. I happen to believe the french system is better than the US system (as the US system is right now) but I don't personally believe that it is fundamentally the best system or in any way fundamentally better than a free market system (to include medical charities). But what I think is completely misguided is to think that the French system is absolutely equitable, infallible, or transposable to the US.
  - moocowduckquack 13y ago
    "If you think that an arab living in france gets the same quality of healthcare as a european french person at the same poverty level, you're kidding yourself." Funnily enough, medic in French is an Arabic loanword, toubib. Also, I am not sure how you think the French health system works, but at every level through it there are enough people of Arabic background in it that your idea of there being massive differences in health care for people of Arabic background in France seems unlikely. It is true that there will be instances of racism, however I think that you are pretty far off the mark here in general. "Ultimately, different ethnicities get different diseases, too, so the bureaucrats in charge of deciding what gets covered and to what extent are basically institutionalizing racial privilege." There is some variation in susceptibility to disease between different ethnicities, sure, but there is such a large and established Arabic population in France that it would make no sense for the health service to be acting in the way you are suggesting. Also what particular diseases are you talking about? As far as I am aware there has been so much mixing between Arabic populations and European ones over history that the differences are not really all that great, especially when you look at the differences in care required anyway for two individuals from the same ethnic background. At the end of the day, given that the French health system gets some of the best ratings in the world and that France also has a very large amount of people who are not of European ancestry, it would be very hard for there be a vast gulf in care based on the ancestry of such a sizeable percentage of the population, otherwise France simply would not hold those ratings. Out of interest, how much time have you spent in France? I have been there a few times, some of my family have lived there for several years and I am currently sharing a house with someone French, who is not of European background.

duaneb 13y ago

> Copy the health care system of any other rich country. This is easier said than done. The link between socialism, still a profane political philosophy, and municipal health care is too strong—the time it would take to switch it over is be on the order of election cycles, not years. Granted, we are already on that road, but it's going to be a long time before any mainstream politician embraces it.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
The Boomers will die (of substandard health care) in another decade or so. That will change politics quite a bit.
rhizome 13y ago
still a profane political philosophy Absolutely not, and and "socialist" is not the same thing as "socialism" at any rate. The only people who hate the idea are the hardcore capitalists, most notably those who profit from the current regime (industrialists and drama-fed parasites like the media and politicians), but the fact remains that nationalized health care is a feature of pretty much every single country with a higher standard of living than the US.
- duaneb 13y ago
  > The only people who hate the idea are the hardcore capitalists Well, them and voters.
  - rhizome 13y ago
    Pretty sure voters would like a higher standard of living.