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That's amazingly naive, Jacques. The same argument could be used for embassies worldwide: they are considered part of another country and so on. Yet embassies a
by DanielBMarkham 13y ago
That's amazingly naive, Jacques. The same argument could be used for embassies worldwide: they are considered part of another country and so on. Yet embassies are routinely tapped by everyone. Been that way for decades.
The UN is a treaty organization, not a world government. It has as much sanctity as any other treaty organization -- not much. If folks want to construe this as being something to do with them being hosted in the US, then I'm at a loss as to how to continue the conversation. The Chinese would be okay tapping the communications but the U.S. not? Doesn't make any sense.
A little bit of context here is all I ask. Intelligence agencies are supposed to find out things about diplomatic, political, and military matters. They break and bend all kinds of rules doing so. This will continue whether or not you or I agree to it, whether it's the US or the Russians, and whether the UN is in New York or Botswana. I'm fine with that, mainly because the more each country knows about the inner workings of the others, the better they can predict reactions to political moves. That makes the world safer.
I think we've just reached the point where somebody says "NSA" and the mob all gets out the pitchforks and torches. That's a shame, because there is a very serious problem here, and it has nothing to do with the U.S. or the NSA. It has to do with technology making the entire life of the civilian population available to anybody with the appropriate political power. Not limited to NSA. Not limited to the U.S.. It's a worldwide problem based on the tech we create everyday.
We should really get off the NSA jag and on to actually solving problems instead of this emotional overreaction to any story with NSA in the title business the MSM is pushing us into.
- jacquesm 13y agoYes, I got it. The US can not be trusted under any circumstances and treaties are meaningless. Call me naive but I expected better, I'd be just as surprised if the Swiss were caught bugging the Geneva assembly or if the Belgians were caught bugging the EU Headquarters. Note the 'caught'. Who knows, they might even do it. But for now we only have proof about the US and the UN mission in New York and if you can't see why that's a bad thing (even if it was to be expected by all but the naive people in the world) then I can't help that. Trust is fragile. It's like cheating on your wife: you can do it, plenty of people do. But don't get found out or there will be consequences that you might not be willing to pay.
- gruseom 13y agotreaties are meaningless Are there actual treaties that have been broken through any of this? While it does seem naive to expect nations to be "trustworthy" or not to spy, breaking a formal treaty is surely another matter.
- jacquesm 13y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Headquarters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Headquarters
- gruseom 13y agoThat's not nearly precise enough to answer my question. The article refers in passing to a treaty granting UN headquarters extraterritorial status. Obviously, extraterritoriality as such doesn't preclude spying. The question is whether a specific treaty was specifically broken. That's an interesting question for two reasons: it presumably has an exact answer, and it would have consequences beyond just the media, general outrage, etc. Edit: But this looks like it might count: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6272729 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6272729
- jacquesm 13y agoYou're further along than I am. I read that the UN headquarters were declared 'inviolate', but don't recall where. Searching. Edit: found it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spying_on_the_United_Nations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spying_on_the_United_Nations Edit2: and I see you have an even better reference now. Anyway, I think that the 'inviolate' from my original comment stands and that - at least according to the UN - this is not just a breach of decorum but illegal.
- gruseom 13y agoYes, that's got to be the most relevant Wikipedia article. Since it starts with two examples of spying on the UN that appear to have had zero consequences, I guess I was wrong.
- sengstrom 13y agoThey are expected to do it (bug), but not be found out.
- subsection1h 13y agoThat's a shame, because there is a very serious problem here, and it has nothing to do with the U.S. or the NSA. It has to do with technology [...] The NSA has been giving domestic phone records to the DEA. Are plain old telephones what you meant when you referred to technology? We should really get off the NSA jag [...] I'll get off it when Clapper is in prison.