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Someone always types up this same response to any incident like this, and it always sounds like exactly what I'd expect to hear from the sort of person who stif

Someone always types up this same response to any incident like this, and it always sounds like exactly what I'd expect to hear from the sort of person who stiffs people.

drwl 13y ago
I think this is a common response because it's actually the right choice(s) to make. I mean yes, not getting paid is never fun. There's a video posted in another comment titled "fuck you, pay me" and I think it really addresses this for freelancers. The short version of the video is have a lawyer and write a contract and if they don't pay then enforce the contract. Just my thoughts.
- mgkimsal 13y ago
  For all we know this action may have been part of the contract and the client simply failed to read it, or didn't believe it would happen.
  - nedwin 13y ago
    Highly unlikely.
- drwl 13y ago
  Yes, I agree it is possible this was part of a contract. I don't know the details of the two parties arrangement so I can't say with any certainty.
- 6d0debc071 13y ago
  Might not have been able to get one if he's dealing with a horse and cart company. :/
thejosh 13y ago
What? If you hand over the keys to a car and tell them that they can start driving it and then pay you when ready, would you post the same response? Car dealerships don't work that way, you need to sign a contract to use the car - usually web agencies are similar and require full payment or atleast a "payment plan" in place for a website to launch.
- randallsquared 13y ago
  > Car dealerships don't work that way, Quite true. This isn't a car dealership. Doing website support for small businesses in medium and small markets often does work that way. They have a site, they would prefer that things are added to it, instead of a complete replacement. Back when I was doing webapps in this situation, the business would often insist on running the site from their T1 or ISDN line, refusing to spring for hosting someplace where they can't see the physical hardware to reassure themselves that there is something there. "You want to back up the database for testing? No, just connect to the production database." "No, you don't have access to webserver config; just build it in a folder." (It turns out that they don't have such access, either, since they "had a disagreement" with the guy who set up the box for them before he left on bad terms. Asking about how to contact this guy is apparently suspicious). "You want us to sign a contract? We'll look at it." (They never get back to you, since they can find a dozen other people who are grateful for the promise of payment). "Pay before it launches? Oh, no, we pay net 60, but our site says 'New site coming Oct 1st!', so unless it's up then, there's no reason for us to pay you." (Of course, they put this up without consulting you after you agreed to start prototyping). And this is to say nothing of the people who insist on detailed designs and specification documents, then say, "Actually, we're going to wait a little while", and then you find your designed system on their site creaking along like it was written by the nephew of the boss's secretary, who totally learned computer science stuff in high school this semester. Surprise! It was written by that guy, except they hired someone else at $15/hr to randomly change things until it worked, since he had to go back to school when spring break ended... It's not that there are a few businesses that operate like this: this seems to be the majority of small-town businesses who need webapps. When I ran a business doing webapps and web design in the mid-2000s, I'm not sure I ever ran into an end customer who didn't try to pull something I found really shady, though for them it was just the normal way they think they have to deal with vendors so that they can stay in business. When I gave up and got a salaried job in 2008, my stress evaporated, even though it was a job at a failing startup. :)
grey-area 13y ago
I'm sad that you think so. I would never stiff a client or customer (I'm a designer) and have friends who have gone unpaid so I know how distressing this is. I also abhor the idea of not paying people who work for me; I've never done that, and never would, even if unhappy with the work produced. I have stopped working for a client in the past because I found they didn't pay tradesmen working for them, so this is an important principle to me - if someone does work they deserve to be paid for it. I just think this is absolutely the wrong response. As a freelancer or business your reputation is paramount - that reputation should be for professionalism and courtesy, even when others are not professional with you. This sort of incident teaches us the value of contracts, staged payments, and trust with your clients. If you don't have a good trusting relationship with clients, it's best to end that relationship and find other clients. If a client screws you, I think the best response is to make sure people know what they did, and adjust your process so that future clients can't do that, not abuse your power over their domain/server to post a partisan message like this. So I'm afraid your assumptions about my motivations are completely unfounded - perhaps you'd like to rethink them and offer me an apology?
- nknighthb 13y ago
  I saw no assumption about your motivation, he just found your response the same as that which he would "expect to hear from the sort of person who stiffs people". I happen to agree with him. Noting this does not require thinking you are one of those people. There is an explanation that is at least equally plausible: You, like so many others, have been inculcated with contradictory views by a society which gives power freely to the dishonest, while purporting to value honesty, but in a form designed to further empower the dishonest.
  - grey-area 13y ago
    If it doesn't apply to me, it's a meaningless response and a non-sequitur. I think it rather more likely it did and the insinuation (which you have extended with your own charming and baseless insinuation) was based on untested assumptions which could not be more wrong.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
edanm 13y ago
The reason someone always types up this response is because it's correct. This is not a good move for your freelancing career, however fun it might be to do, and no serious professional will ever do it. If you want to communicate unprofessionalism, fine, but there are a lot of good and experienced people on this forum trying to teach their business skills, and this one is pretty clear cut.

Someone always types up this same response to any incident like this, and it always sounds like exactly what I'd expect to hear from the sort of person who stiffs people.

drwl 13y ago

I think this is a common response because it's actually the right choice(s) to make. I mean yes, not getting paid is never fun. There's a video posted in another comment titled "fuck you, pay me" and I think it really addresses this for freelancers. The short version of the video is have a lawyer and write a contract and if they don't pay then enforce the contract. Just my thoughts.

mgkimsal 13y ago
For all we know this action may have been part of the contract and the client simply failed to read it, or didn't believe it would happen.
- nedwin 13y ago
  Highly unlikely.
drwl 13y ago
Yes, I agree it is possible this was part of a contract. I don't know the details of the two parties arrangement so I can't say with any certainty.
6d0debc071 13y ago
Might not have been able to get one if he's dealing with a horse and cart company. :/

thejosh 13y ago

What? If you hand over the keys to a car and tell them that they can start driving it and then pay you when ready, would you post the same response? Car dealerships don't work that way, you need to sign a contract to use the car - usually web agencies are similar and require full payment or atleast a "payment plan" in place for a website to launch.

randallsquared 13y ago
> Car dealerships don't work that way, Quite true. This isn't a car dealership. Doing website support for small businesses in medium and small markets often does work that way. They have a site, they would prefer that things are added to it, instead of a complete replacement. Back when I was doing webapps in this situation, the business would often insist on running the site from their T1 or ISDN line, refusing to spring for hosting someplace where they can't see the physical hardware to reassure themselves that there is something there. "You want to back up the database for testing? No, just connect to the production database." "No, you don't have access to webserver config; just build it in a folder." (It turns out that they don't have such access, either, since they "had a disagreement" with the guy who set up the box for them before he left on bad terms. Asking about how to contact this guy is apparently suspicious). "You want us to sign a contract? We'll look at it." (They never get back to you, since they can find a dozen other people who are grateful for the promise of payment). "Pay before it launches? Oh, no, we pay net 60, but our site says 'New site coming Oct 1st!', so unless it's up then, there's no reason for us to pay you." (Of course, they put this up without consulting you after you agreed to start prototyping). And this is to say nothing of the people who insist on detailed designs and specification documents, then say, "Actually, we're going to wait a little while", and then you find your designed system on their site creaking along like it was written by the nephew of the boss's secretary, who totally learned computer science stuff in high school this semester. Surprise! It was written by that guy, except they hired someone else at $15/hr to randomly change things until it worked, since he had to go back to school when spring break ended... It's not that there are a few businesses that operate like this: this seems to be the majority of small-town businesses who need webapps. When I ran a business doing webapps and web design in the mid-2000s, I'm not sure I ever ran into an end customer who didn't try to pull something I found really shady, though for them it was just the normal way they think they have to deal with vendors so that they can stay in business. When I gave up and got a salaried job in 2008, my stress evaporated, even though it was a job at a failing startup. :)

grey-area 13y ago

I'm sad that you think so. I would never stiff a client or customer (I'm a designer) and have friends who have gone unpaid so I know how distressing this is. I also abhor the idea of not paying people who work for me; I've never done that, and never would, even if unhappy with the work produced. I have stopped working for a client in the past because I found they didn't pay tradesmen working for them, so this is an important principle to me - if someone does work they deserve to be paid for it. I just think this is absolutely the wrong response. As a freelancer or business your reputation is paramount - that reputation should be for professionalism and courtesy, even when others are not professional with you. This sort of incident teaches us the value of contracts, staged payments, and trust with your clients. If you don't have a good trusting relationship with clients, it's best to end that relationship and find other clients. If a client screws you, I think the best response is to make sure people know what they did, and adjust your process so that future clients can't do that, not abuse your power over their domain/server to post a partisan message like this. So I'm afraid your assumptions about my motivations are completely unfounded - perhaps you'd like to rethink them and offer me an apology?

nknighthb 13y ago
I saw no assumption about your motivation, he just found your response the same as that which he would "expect to hear from the sort of person who stiffs people". I happen to agree with him. Noting this does not require thinking you are one of those people. There is an explanation that is at least equally plausible: You, like so many others, have been inculcated with contradictory views by a society which gives power freely to the dishonest, while purporting to value honesty, but in a form designed to further empower the dishonest.
- grey-area 13y ago
  If it doesn't apply to me, it's a meaningless response and a non-sequitur. I think it rather more likely it did and the insinuation (which you have extended with your own charming and baseless insinuation) was based on untested assumptions which could not be more wrong.
- dllthomas 13y ago

edanm 13y ago

The reason someone always types up this response is because it's correct. This is not a good move for your freelancing career, however fun it might be to do, and no serious professional will ever do it. If you want to communicate unprofessionalism, fine, but there are a lot of good and experienced people on this forum trying to teach their business skills, and this one is pretty clear cut.