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I don't think the PDF was saying that it could violate energy conservation, nor was the actual content implying something from nothing (the title did though), b

I don't think the PDF was saying that it could violate energy conservation, nor was the actual content implying something from nothing (the title did though), but it did imply that there is a possibility that the forces present in an existing system (i.e. non conducting plates within a region of space under the influence of an external field), could be transferred to a much smaller system without the experimenter using energy to apply a force. I think that because something else is going on that can't be explained for, is the reason why people are looking in the first place. Here's an example of that[0]: "Surprisingly, with pyrrole the predicted ‘activation barriers’ were way out, with calculations “less than a third of the measured value”. After much head scratching, puzzled scientists turned to a purely quantum phenomenon called ‘zero-point energy’. In classical physics, an object losing energy can continue to do so until it can be thought of as sitting perfectly still. In the quantum world, this is never the case: everything always retains some form of residual – even undetectable – energy, known as ‘zero-point energy’. While ‘zero-point energy’ is well known to be associated with motion of the atoms contained in molecules, it was previously believed that such tiny amounts of energy simply don’t affect the molecule as a whole to any measurable extent, unless the molecule broke apart. But now, the researchers have discovered that the “quantum nature” of the molecule's internal motion actually does affect the molecule as a whole as it moves across the surface, defying the ‘classical’ laws that it’s simply too big to feel quantum effects." [0] http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/movement-of-pyrrole-molecules-defy-classical-physics http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/movement-of-pyrrole-molec...

lutusp 13y ago
> But now, the researchers have discovered that the “quantum nature” of the molecule's internal motion actually does affect the molecule as a whole as it moves across the surface, defying the ‘classical’ laws that it’s simply too big to feel quantum effects." Well, first, Heisenberg's uncertainly principle doesn't place an upper bound on the size of a mass susceptible to quantum effects, only the probability. An easy way to picture this is to say that flipping a fair coin once has equal probability to come up heads (1) or tails (0). But for a single flip, 1/2 is not a possible outcome. For a million coin flips, an averaged result of 1 or 0 is still a possibility, but it is extremely unlikely, whereas an averaged outcome of 1/2, which was impossible for a single coin flip, is now rather likely. This means there is no mass or size threshold for quantum effects, as many people think -- the effects just become less apparent. But it's important to distinguish between quantum effects and energy state. If a system's wave function collapses and a superposition of states becomes one state, that state cannot have more or less energy than any other possible state. Expressed another way, if you open Schrödinger's box and the cat is dead, the dead cat can't have more or less energy than the living cat. The bottom line is that quantum theories don't violate energy conservation, and all the talk about ZPE leading to spacecraft drives arises from people who don't understand physics. > "... defying the ‘classical’ laws that it’s simply too big to feel quantum effects." This is a case of a journalist who also doesn't understand quantum theory. No classical laws are being defied, and there is no mass so big that it cannot experience quantum effects. The reason is easy to explain -- a huge mass is composed of individual atoms, and individual atoms experience quantum effects. Q.E.D. :)
- cinquemb 13y ago
  >The bottom line is that quantum theories don't violate energy conservation, and all the talk about ZPE leading to spacecraft drives arises from people who don't understand physics." And from the PDF: "The topic of successfully exploiting zero point energy (ZPE) has importance because it represents a high-risk/high pay-off technology. This is not pseudo-science but a very serious discipline where very serious research is underway worldwide that range from investigating the Casimir effect, finding new alternative sources of energy, and developing a means of future long-range space travel. Efforts are currently underway at a U.S. aerospace corporation to include creating hardware to investigate using ZPE to provide energy. Finally, one would like to see experimental data and, hopefully, replication of such experiments representative of 'good' science. However, the amount of U.S. research dollars spent in this endeavor is abysmal such that even the simplest experiment cannot be performed. Although we are aware of only modest funding worldwide for this type of research, the Intelligence Community should monitor the more controversial aspects of ZPE, or we may miss an important foreign innovational leap forward, thereby leaving us vulnerable to technology surprise." So I guess governments/universities/organizations who fund research for scientists and physicists around the world have much to learn from you since you know what is and what cannot be :P
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > So I guess governments/universities/organizations who fund research for scientists and physicists around the world have much to learn from you since you know what is and what cannot be ... No, not just me -- anyone with the most superficial familiarity with quantum theory knows that virtual particles cannot upset nature's energy bookkeeping. Also, the author of the PDF is trying to make this sound like a serious research project with governmental support, when it is nothing of the kind -- there are no "governments/universities/organizations" involved in this activity. Here's the dead-giveaway line: "However, the amount of U.S. research dollars spent in this endeavor is abysmal such that even the simplest experiment cannot be performed." If that's true, then it is not science. The PDF is filled with this sort of handwaving claim, but without any substantiation, without any specifics. Here's a classic crackpot alert (not by the author of the PDF, but a quotation from elsewhere): "This is not pseudo-science but a very serious discipline where very serious research is underway worldwide that range from investigating the Casimir effect, finding new alternative sources of energy, and developing a means of future long-range space travel." All this without being able to do any experiments, a sure sign of pseudoscience. And notice the attribution for the above quotation -- "an analyst at Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)" -- but the article doesn't identify the person, a no-no in any technical or scientific publication. The PDF contains obvious and glaring falsehoods, example: "While grand plans of harvesting large amounts of energy from the vacuum to propel vehicles through deep space is better suited for science fiction, it may eventually be possible to use small amounts of energy (picowatts) from the vacuum for long-term space travel." This is not how the Casimir Effect works, and the author of this article has no idea what she is talking about. The Casimir Effect is a force, not a source of energy, and the force is symmetrical -- it can't propel anything in a particular direction, i.e. the net force outside the region of the plates is zero. It is to space travel what blowing on your own sail is to sailing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy Quote: "Over the years, there have been numerous claims of devices capable of extracting usable zero-point energy. None of the claims have ever been confirmed by the scientific community at large, and most of these claims are dismissed either by default, after third party inspection of such a device or based on disbelief in the viability of a technical design and theoretical corroboration. Current claims to zero-point-energy-based power generation systems are considered pseudoscience by the scientific community at large." Q.E.D.

lutusp 13y ago

> But now, the researchers have discovered that the “quantum nature” of the molecule's internal motion actually does affect the molecule as a whole as it moves across the surface, defying the ‘classical’ laws that it’s simply too big to feel quantum effects." Well, first, Heisenberg's uncertainly principle doesn't place an upper bound on the size of a mass susceptible to quantum effects, only the probability. An easy way to picture this is to say that flipping a fair coin once has equal probability to come up heads (1) or tails (0). But for a single flip, 1/2 is not a possible outcome. For a million coin flips, an averaged result of 1 or 0 is still a possibility, but it is extremely unlikely, whereas an averaged outcome of 1/2, which was impossible for a single coin flip, is now rather likely. This means there is no mass or size threshold for quantum effects, as many people think -- the effects just become less apparent. But it's important to distinguish between quantum effects and energy state. If a system's wave function collapses and a superposition of states becomes one state, that state cannot have more or less energy than any other possible state. Expressed another way, if you open Schrödinger's box and the cat is dead, the dead cat can't have more or less energy than the living cat. The bottom line is that quantum theories don't violate energy conservation, and all the talk about ZPE leading to spacecraft drives arises from people who don't understand physics. > "... defying the ‘classical’ laws that it’s simply too big to feel quantum effects." This is a case of a journalist who also doesn't understand quantum theory. No classical laws are being defied, and there is no mass so big that it cannot experience quantum effects. The reason is easy to explain -- a huge mass is composed of individual atoms, and individual atoms experience quantum effects. Q.E.D. :)

cinquemb 13y ago
>The bottom line is that quantum theories don't violate energy conservation, and all the talk about ZPE leading to spacecraft drives arises from people who don't understand physics." And from the PDF: "The topic of successfully exploiting zero point energy (ZPE) has importance because it represents a high-risk/high pay-off technology. This is not pseudo-science but a very serious discipline where very serious research is underway worldwide that range from investigating the Casimir effect, finding new alternative sources of energy, and developing a means of future long-range space travel. Efforts are currently underway at a U.S. aerospace corporation to include creating hardware to investigate using ZPE to provide energy. Finally, one would like to see experimental data and, hopefully, replication of such experiments representative of 'good' science. However, the amount of U.S. research dollars spent in this endeavor is abysmal such that even the simplest experiment cannot be performed. Although we are aware of only modest funding worldwide for this type of research, the Intelligence Community should monitor the more controversial aspects of ZPE, or we may miss an important foreign innovational leap forward, thereby leaving us vulnerable to technology surprise." So I guess governments/universities/organizations who fund research for scientists and physicists around the world have much to learn from you since you know what is and what cannot be :P
- lutusp 13y ago
  > So I guess governments/universities/organizations who fund research for scientists and physicists around the world have much to learn from you since you know what is and what cannot be ... No, not just me -- anyone with the most superficial familiarity with quantum theory knows that virtual particles cannot upset nature's energy bookkeeping. Also, the author of the PDF is trying to make this sound like a serious research project with governmental support, when it is nothing of the kind -- there are no "governments/universities/organizations" involved in this activity. Here's the dead-giveaway line: "However, the amount of U.S. research dollars spent in this endeavor is abysmal such that even the simplest experiment cannot be performed." If that's true, then it is not science. The PDF is filled with this sort of handwaving claim, but without any substantiation, without any specifics. Here's a classic crackpot alert (not by the author of the PDF, but a quotation from elsewhere): "This is not pseudo-science but a very serious discipline where very serious research is underway worldwide that range from investigating the Casimir effect, finding new alternative sources of energy, and developing a means of future long-range space travel." All this without being able to do any experiments, a sure sign of pseudoscience. And notice the attribution for the above quotation -- "an analyst at Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)" -- but the article doesn't identify the person, a no-no in any technical or scientific publication. The PDF contains obvious and glaring falsehoods, example: "While grand plans of harvesting large amounts of energy from the vacuum to propel vehicles through deep space is better suited for science fiction, it may eventually be possible to use small amounts of energy (picowatts) from the vacuum for long-term space travel." This is not how the Casimir Effect works, and the author of this article has no idea what she is talking about. The Casimir Effect is a force, not a source of energy, and the force is symmetrical -- it can't propel anything in a particular direction, i.e. the net force outside the region of the plates is zero. It is to space travel what blowing on your own sail is to sailing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy Quote: "Over the years, there have been numerous claims of devices capable of extracting usable zero-point energy. None of the claims have ever been confirmed by the scientific community at large, and most of these claims are dismissed either by default, after third party inspection of such a device or based on disbelief in the viability of a technical design and theoretical corroboration. Current claims to zero-point-energy-based power generation systems are considered pseudoscience by the scientific community at large." Q.E.D.