6 ms·

Servo – A parallel browser engine in Rust by Mozilla

124 points by snird 13y ago

agumonkey 13y ago
Just recently passed Acid 1 https://twitter.com/metajack/status/371041675633647616 https://twitter.com/metajack/status/371041675633647616
- dbaupp 13y ago
  Note that the master branch is actually still 1 patch from passing: https://github.com/mozilla/servo/pull/764 https://github.com/mozilla/servo/pull/764.
santialbo 13y ago
Is this supposed to replace Gecko in the future? or is it just a "toy" project?
- pcwalton 13y ago
  It's a research project. There are no product plans at this time.
- iopq 13y ago
  if early benchmarks find that it scales better on more cores, it will probably be pushed to replace Gecko if it doesn't seem like the gains are great, they'll probably have to prove that the added safety is worth it
nawitus 13y ago
What is specifically a "browser engine"?
- Millennium 13y ago
  The definition is a little fluid. At the absolute minimum you'd need an HTML renderer and Internet access, but this wouldn't get you so far on the modern Web. Most people would expect some level of CSS and JavaScript support too.
- agumonkey 13y ago
  AFAIK Servo is mostly a DOM layout parallel renderer. I mistook it for a full browser but the dev corrected me saying it's "just" rendering engine. Right now they're using separate css lib, js interpreter, etc. Servo deals with the layout.
  - sanxiyn 13y ago
    There is a plan to replace the separate CSS library with its own.
    - agumonkey 13y ago
      Yeah they were saying it was probably causing performance issues, so the sooner the better.
      - lillycat 13y ago
        It is a (long, hard) work in progress. One dev started this huge task about 3 weeks ago :-)
        agumonkey 13y ago
        I hope this didn't come across like an impatient rant. I just wish them a quick path toward advancing state of the art ideas about DOM rendering and parallelism.
Avshalom 13y ago
Is there a good high level post any where about the architecture of servo (particularly compared to gecko)? All I ever hear is "parallel-er" with out any detail about which bits can/can't/aren't-but-could-be or anything.
- bjz_ 13y ago
  https://github.com/mozilla/servo/wiki/Design https://github.com/mozilla/servo/wiki/Design
illektr1k 13y ago
I will be the first to admit to having a soft-spot for any program that will quote H.P. Lovecraft on abort/error. https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/libstd/rt/util.rs https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/libstd/rt/ut...
- bjz_ 13y ago
  brson likes scatter those around. Rust's new runtime has gave me a few of when it first landed. Unfortunately I haven't seen any in quite a while. :( (I really hope some spoil-sport doesn't get rid of them)
- sinkasapa 13y ago
  Yeah, as long as it isn't a quote of his cat's name.
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  You can click and shift-click on the line numbers to get a URL like this: https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/libstd/rt/util.rs#L77-L119 https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/libstd/rt/ut...
doe88 13y ago
I would be interested in knowing how they accomplish such a huge undertaking given the fact Rust seems [1] to be a language in constant evolution right now. Do they target a fixed subset of Rust (is it even possible) or do they make continual updates to their code? (disclaimer I know nothing about Rust other than having read some of the previous posts linked from HN) [1] as others HN readers have commented in related threads about Rust
- azakai 13y ago
  > Do they target a fixed subset of Rust (is it even possible) or do they make continual updates to their code? Updates when necessary. As the language gets more stable, that gets easier.
- Cowen 13y ago
  Servo right now is more of a Rust reference project than a serious engine. They use the most up-to-date features of Rust and don't worry about having to rewrite the code with the next version because they know they're working with a somewhat unstable language spec. The real value of Servo right now isn't really as a browser engine, but instead its value as the largest software project currently written in Rust. When you're creating a programming language, you always want to know what it will be like to build large projects in that language, and that's exactly the experience being gained right now with Servo.
  - tbe 13y ago
    Knowing what it's like to write an HTML rendering engine in Rust is especially useful since the purpose of this language in the first place is to write the next generation Mozilla engine.
- bjz_ 13y ago
  I believe Servo uses a particular version of Rust for 1-2 weeks, then updates to the new version. But somebody closer to the project would have to confirm that. Servo is extremely important to the language's development because it is such a huge undertaking. Along with the self-hosting compiler, it allows the core devs to get invaluable feedback on how their language is performing practically.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
erikpukinskis 13y ago
It's funny to take a moment and notice that a cutting edge new project comes with build instructions for Mac first and then Debian. It wasn't so long ago that if you weren't on Windows or RedHat you were going have to figure it out yourself.
- pohl 13y ago
  This probably has more to do with the relative maturity of LLVM (used for Rust's compiler's back end) on each target.
- bjz_ 13y ago
  And unfortunately Windows support is one of Rust's weak spots. Which will be sorted in the future of course, but it needs some tenacious souls to donate some time if it's going to happen any sooner. Game devs will need this in particular, and they are probably going to be one of Rust's primary groups of users. (in fact, anecdotally it feels like they already are)
  - weavie 13y ago
    How is it weaker? I've just started running it on windows this week. Needs to run under MinGw, but other than that I'm not aware of any probs. Am just starting on it though, so it would be interesting to know.
    - eslaught 13y ago
      I don't know if this is still true, but at one point in time you needed to have installed the exact same version of MinGW that Rust itself was compiled with. That meant, for example, that you couldn't rebuild Rust with a newer version of MinGW. Also, and this isn't really a Rust problem so much as an LLVM one, I believe exception handling was broken on Windows for some time. Presumably this is fixed now, but I haven't actually checked recently.
    - bjz_ 13y ago
      Oh really? That's great! To be honest I don't follow the Windows situation too closely, as I work on OSX. So things might have improved.
ciupicri 13y ago
> Servo builds its own copy of Rust, so there is no need to provide a Rust compiler. That's because it downloads and compiles it when compiling Servo. I wish they'd mention this.
- ics 13y ago
  I was a little surprised when I caught that in my terminal as well. About to enter hour two of building...

124 points by snird 13y ago

Just recently passed Acid 1 https://twitter.com/metajack/status/371041675633647616 https://twitter.com/metajack/status/371041675633647616

dbaupp 13y ago
Note that the master branch is actually still 1 patch from passing: https://github.com/mozilla/servo/pull/764 https://github.com/mozilla/servo/pull/764.

santialbo 13y ago

Is this supposed to replace Gecko in the future? or is it just a "toy" project?

pcwalton 13y ago
It's a research project. There are no product plans at this time.
iopq 13y ago
if early benchmarks find that it scales better on more cores, it will probably be pushed to replace Gecko if it doesn't seem like the gains are great, they'll probably have to prove that the added safety is worth it

nawitus 13y ago

What is specifically a "browser engine"?

Millennium 13y ago
The definition is a little fluid. At the absolute minimum you'd need an HTML renderer and Internet access, but this wouldn't get you so far on the modern Web. Most people would expect some level of CSS and JavaScript support too.
agumonkey 13y ago
AFAIK Servo is mostly a DOM layout parallel renderer. I mistook it for a full browser but the dev corrected me saying it's "just" rendering engine. Right now they're using separate css lib, js interpreter, etc. Servo deals with the layout.
- sanxiyn 13y ago
  There is a plan to replace the separate CSS library with its own.
  - agumonkey 13y ago
    Yeah they were saying it was probably causing performance issues, so the sooner the better.
    - lillycat 13y ago
      It is a (long, hard) work in progress. One dev started this huge task about 3 weeks ago :-)
      - agumonkey 13y ago
        I hope this didn't come across like an impatient rant. I just wish them a quick path toward advancing state of the art ideas about DOM rendering and parallelism.

Avshalom 13y ago

Is there a good high level post any where about the architecture of servo (particularly compared to gecko)? All I ever hear is "parallel-er" with out any detail about which bits can/can't/aren't-but-could-be or anything.

bjz_ 13y ago
https://github.com/mozilla/servo/wiki/Design https://github.com/mozilla/servo/wiki/Design

illektr1k 13y ago

I will be the first to admit to having a soft-spot for any program that will quote H.P. Lovecraft on abort/error. https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/libstd/rt/util.rs https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/libstd/rt/ut...

bjz_ 13y ago
brson likes scatter those around. Rust's new runtime has gave me a few of when it first landed. Unfortunately I haven't seen any in quite a while. :( (I really hope some spoil-sport doesn't get rid of them)
sinkasapa 13y ago
Yeah, as long as it isn't a quote of his cat's name.
steveklabnik 13y ago
You can click and shift-click on the line numbers to get a URL like this: https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/libstd/rt/util.rs#L77-L119 https://github.com/mozilla/rust/blob/master/src/libstd/rt/ut...

doe88 13y ago

I would be interested in knowing how they accomplish such a huge undertaking given the fact Rust seems [1] to be a language in constant evolution right now. Do they target a fixed subset of Rust (is it even possible) or do they make continual updates to their code? (disclaimer I know nothing about Rust other than having read some of the previous posts linked from HN) [1] as others HN readers have commented in related threads about Rust

azakai 13y ago
> Do they target a fixed subset of Rust (is it even possible) or do they make continual updates to their code? Updates when necessary. As the language gets more stable, that gets easier.
Cowen 13y ago
Servo right now is more of a Rust reference project than a serious engine. They use the most up-to-date features of Rust and don't worry about having to rewrite the code with the next version because they know they're working with a somewhat unstable language spec. The real value of Servo right now isn't really as a browser engine, but instead its value as the largest software project currently written in Rust. When you're creating a programming language, you always want to know what it will be like to build large projects in that language, and that's exactly the experience being gained right now with Servo.
- tbe 13y ago
  Knowing what it's like to write an HTML rendering engine in Rust is especially useful since the purpose of this language in the first place is to write the next generation Mozilla engine.
bjz_ 13y ago
I believe Servo uses a particular version of Rust for 1-2 weeks, then updates to the new version. But somebody closer to the project would have to confirm that. Servo is extremely important to the language's development because it is such a huge undertaking. Along with the self-hosting compiler, it allows the core devs to get invaluable feedback on how their language is performing practically.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

erikpukinskis 13y ago

It's funny to take a moment and notice that a cutting edge new project comes with build instructions for Mac first and then Debian. It wasn't so long ago that if you weren't on Windows or RedHat you were going have to figure it out yourself.

pohl 13y ago
This probably has more to do with the relative maturity of LLVM (used for Rust's compiler's back end) on each target.
bjz_ 13y ago
And unfortunately Windows support is one of Rust's weak spots. Which will be sorted in the future of course, but it needs some tenacious souls to donate some time if it's going to happen any sooner. Game devs will need this in particular, and they are probably going to be one of Rust's primary groups of users. (in fact, anecdotally it feels like they already are)
- weavie 13y ago
  How is it weaker? I've just started running it on windows this week. Needs to run under MinGw, but other than that I'm not aware of any probs. Am just starting on it though, so it would be interesting to know.
  - eslaught 13y ago
    I don't know if this is still true, but at one point in time you needed to have installed the exact same version of MinGW that Rust itself was compiled with. That meant, for example, that you couldn't rebuild Rust with a newer version of MinGW. Also, and this isn't really a Rust problem so much as an LLVM one, I believe exception handling was broken on Windows for some time. Presumably this is fixed now, but I haven't actually checked recently.
  - bjz_ 13y ago
    Oh really? That's great! To be honest I don't follow the Windows situation too closely, as I work on OSX. So things might have improved.

ciupicri 13y ago

> Servo builds its own copy of Rust, so there is no need to provide a Rust compiler. That's because it downloads and compiles it when compiling Servo. I wish they'd mention this.

ics 13y ago
I was a little surprised when I caught that in my terminal as well. About to enter hour two of building...