7 ms·

that's fine as long as the oil is paid 10x less. oh, they want to be paid six figures to just sort of hang out a few hours a day, be everybody's friend, and le

that's fine as long as the oil is paid 10x less. oh, they want to be paid six figures to just sort of hang out a few hours a day, be everybody's friend, and leave by 3? The economics doesn't work because the productive people who are pulling 10-14 hour days will see that productivity is not necessary or valued and leave.

skore 13y ago
If the oil makes the other six figure people deliver six figure work and if without them, they'd only deliver 5 figure work, then no. That money is invested reasonably. People aren't idiots, they realize when somebody else enables a group of people to excel. If they don't realize that, it's managements job to make sure this is understood. And besides, if employees who are "productive" are pulling 10-14 hours a day, then there is again something going terribly wrong in management to begin with. The real problem of the Microsoft system is setting a fixed value on the number of "cog" and "oil" employees. Different jobs need different people and different people again need different people. If a manager says: "I have 10 units of cog and 5 units of oil people" and is allowed to give out money accordingly, that's great. But if the company says: "Sorry, but you can only have 14 cog and 1 oil" - Suddenly you are forced tell 4 employees who are great workers that they're just lubrication.
Joeri 13y ago
People pulling 14 hour days with regularity are not that productive.
- robin2 13y ago
  There's a limit to the amount of serious, concentrated thinking that you can do in day, so it should be fairly obvious that pressurizing coders in to working long hours is counter-productive. With other jobs it might be less of an issue. Although I've never done 14 hour days, I did once have a warehouse job assembling cardboard boxes for 12 hours a day, and I don't think the hours harmed my productivity. (My recollection is that I worked as hard as I could, just to make the day pass more quickly.)
  - walshemj 13y ago
    Depends where you on piece work or not :-)
  - codeonfire 13y ago
    In my opinion, this idea about no one can work more than 8 hours a day productively was created to discredit anyone who tries to get ahead through extra effort. It's similar to the idea that says we only need 30 minutes of exercise a day. In reality, pro athletes train for 4-6 hours a day. Yes, a person is a fool if they do more than 8 hours in a workplace environment, but many people work longer days if it furthers their own personal goals. Pressuring coders who don't have an interest in working longer is pointless.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - derefr 13y ago
      > It's similar to the idea that says we only need 30 minutes of exercise a day. In reality, pro athletes train for 4-6 hours a day. This isn't a contradiction; professional athletes do far more exercise than they need. That's why their fitness constantly increases (far past what are the normal requirements for being considered "healthy") rather than just plateauing at "healthy."
    - philwelch 13y ago
      Even professional athletes shouldn't overtrain or else they will sustain injuries or simply be too fatigued to perform. During the season, professional soccer players might play a match once or twice a week, run 10-14 km per match, and need intensive recovery work to be ready for the next match. 2-4 hours of training is usually typical.
- dustingetz 13y ago
  Mythical man month outlines why 14 hour days are often better than the alternatives.

skore 13y ago

If the oil makes the other six figure people deliver six figure work and if without them, they'd only deliver 5 figure work, then no. That money is invested reasonably. People aren't idiots, they realize when somebody else enables a group of people to excel. If they don't realize that, it's managements job to make sure this is understood. And besides, if employees who are "productive" are pulling 10-14 hours a day, then there is again something going terribly wrong in management to begin with. The real problem of the Microsoft system is setting a fixed value on the number of "cog" and "oil" employees. Different jobs need different people and different people again need different people. If a manager says: "I have 10 units of cog and 5 units of oil people" and is allowed to give out money accordingly, that's great. But if the company says: "Sorry, but you can only have 14 cog and 1 oil" - Suddenly you are forced tell 4 employees who are great workers that they're just lubrication.

Joeri 13y ago

People pulling 14 hour days with regularity are not that productive.

robin2 13y ago
There's a limit to the amount of serious, concentrated thinking that you can do in day, so it should be fairly obvious that pressurizing coders in to working long hours is counter-productive. With other jobs it might be less of an issue. Although I've never done 14 hour days, I did once have a warehouse job assembling cardboard boxes for 12 hours a day, and I don't think the hours harmed my productivity. (My recollection is that I worked as hard as I could, just to make the day pass more quickly.)
- walshemj 13y ago
  Depends where you on piece work or not :-)
- codeonfire 13y ago
  In my opinion, this idea about no one can work more than 8 hours a day productively was created to discredit anyone who tries to get ahead through extra effort. It's similar to the idea that says we only need 30 minutes of exercise a day. In reality, pro athletes train for 4-6 hours a day. Yes, a person is a fool if they do more than 8 hours in a workplace environment, but many people work longer days if it furthers their own personal goals. Pressuring coders who don't have an interest in working longer is pointless.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - derefr 13y ago
    > It's similar to the idea that says we only need 30 minutes of exercise a day. In reality, pro athletes train for 4-6 hours a day. This isn't a contradiction; professional athletes do far more exercise than they need. That's why their fitness constantly increases (far past what are the normal requirements for being considered "healthy") rather than just plateauing at "healthy."
  - philwelch 13y ago
    Even professional athletes shouldn't overtrain or else they will sustain injuries or simply be too fatigued to perform. During the season, professional soccer players might play a match once or twice a week, run 10-14 km per match, and need intensive recovery work to be ready for the next match. 2-4 hours of training is usually typical.
dustingetz 13y ago
Mythical man month outlines why 14 hour days are often better than the alternatives.