5 ms·

Zero-Point Energy: Can We Get Something From Nothing?

2 points by cinquemb 13y ago

lutusp 13y ago
In a word, no. Harvesting ZPE would violate energy conservation, and the law of energy conservation is never broken.
- eip 13y ago
  Scientific dogma is worse than religious dogma. Permanent batteries are as real as permanent magnets.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    It's not dogma, it's a simple application of the null hypothesis, meaning until there's contradicting evidence, the assumption is that there's no effect. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Without the null hypothesis, if we instead assumed extraordinary claims to be true without evidence, skeptics would be required to prove a negative, an impossible burden of evidence in most cases, and Bigfoot would become real by default. As things stand, skepticism is the default position of a scientist, and the burden of evidence rests with those who claim extraordinary things. > Permanent batteries are as real as permanent magnets. Neither a permanent battery nor a permanent magnet represents an expenditure of energy, or a violation of energy conservation.
    - eip 13y ago
      By permanent battery I mean a battery that can supply current indefinitely without needing to be charged. The second law is meaningless. It only applies to 'isolated systems' which do not exist in reality. "Truly isolated systems cannot exist in nature, other than possibly the universe itself, and they are thus hypothetical concepts only."
      - lutusp 13y ago
        > By permanent battery I mean a battery that can supply current indefinitely without needing to be charged. Yes, and there's no such thing. Also, they're not equivalent to a permanent magnet. > The second law is meaningless. Well, since you aren't here to discuss physics, have a nice day.
- cinquemb 13y ago
  I think I'd have to agree with you in general, but I'd also have to admit that things start making me do a double take when you get down to the forces from the casimir effect in the nanometer range between uncharged conductors that make me think it would be in the realm of QFT for one much more versed than I am to come up with some theoretical frame work that millennia from now would be considered basic knowledge like conservation of energy was once thought of in the past…
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > ... things start making me do a double take when you get down to the forces from the casimir effect ... Yes, but static forces don't require energy. Only when force and motion are combined is an energy expenditure required. Remember that Casimir effect measurements are carried out by applying an external force to move two plates together, which means the initial energy of motion comes from elsewhere, not from the virtual realm.
    - cinquemb 13y ago
      > Remember that Casimir effect measurements are carried out by applying an external force to move two plates together So an external field not under control cannot be present (i.e. the experimenter is not putting more energy into the system) to obtain measurements?
      - lutusp 13y ago
        My only point was that the Casimir Effect doesn't represent the harvesting of energy, only force, force isn't energy, therefore the effect doesn't violate energy conservation. This is consistent with both quantum theory, in which virtual particles can't unbalance nature's account books, and energy conservation, a principle that stands at the center of most present physical theories. Here's an example: http://arachnoid.com/conservation_of_energy/#Planetary_Orbit_Example http://arachnoid.com/conservation_of_energy/#Planetary_Orbit...
        cinquemb 13y ago

2 points by cinquemb 13y ago

lutusp 13y ago

In a word, no. Harvesting ZPE would violate energy conservation, and the law of energy conservation is never broken.

eip 13y ago
Scientific dogma is worse than religious dogma. Permanent batteries are as real as permanent magnets.
- lutusp 13y ago
  It's not dogma, it's a simple application of the null hypothesis, meaning until there's contradicting evidence, the assumption is that there's no effect. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Without the null hypothesis, if we instead assumed extraordinary claims to be true without evidence, skeptics would be required to prove a negative, an impossible burden of evidence in most cases, and Bigfoot would become real by default. As things stand, skepticism is the default position of a scientist, and the burden of evidence rests with those who claim extraordinary things. > Permanent batteries are as real as permanent magnets. Neither a permanent battery nor a permanent magnet represents an expenditure of energy, or a violation of energy conservation.
  - eip 13y ago
    By permanent battery I mean a battery that can supply current indefinitely without needing to be charged. The second law is meaningless. It only applies to 'isolated systems' which do not exist in reality. "Truly isolated systems cannot exist in nature, other than possibly the universe itself, and they are thus hypothetical concepts only."
    - lutusp 13y ago
      > By permanent battery I mean a battery that can supply current indefinitely without needing to be charged. Yes, and there's no such thing. Also, they're not equivalent to a permanent magnet. > The second law is meaningless. Well, since you aren't here to discuss physics, have a nice day.
cinquemb 13y ago
I think I'd have to agree with you in general, but I'd also have to admit that things start making me do a double take when you get down to the forces from the casimir effect in the nanometer range between uncharged conductors that make me think it would be in the realm of QFT for one much more versed than I am to come up with some theoretical frame work that millennia from now would be considered basic knowledge like conservation of energy was once thought of in the past…
- lutusp 13y ago
  > ... things start making me do a double take when you get down to the forces from the casimir effect ... Yes, but static forces don't require energy. Only when force and motion are combined is an energy expenditure required. Remember that Casimir effect measurements are carried out by applying an external force to move two plates together, which means the initial energy of motion comes from elsewhere, not from the virtual realm.
  - cinquemb 13y ago
    > Remember that Casimir effect measurements are carried out by applying an external force to move two plates together So an external field not under control cannot be present (i.e. the experimenter is not putting more energy into the system) to obtain measurements?
    - lutusp 13y ago
      My only point was that the Casimir Effect doesn't represent the harvesting of energy, only force, force isn't energy, therefore the effect doesn't violate energy conservation. This is consistent with both quantum theory, in which virtual particles can't unbalance nature's account books, and energy conservation, a principle that stands at the center of most present physical theories. Here's an example: http://arachnoid.com/conservation_of_energy/#Planetary_Orbit_Example http://arachnoid.com/conservation_of_energy/#Planetary_Orbit...
      - cinquemb 13y ago