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There is the Cravath Sytem's "Up or Out" policy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_or_out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_or_out In a hierarchical organizatio

by kqr2 13y ago

There is the Cravath Sytem's "Up or Out" policy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_or_out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_or_out In a hierarchical organization, "up or out" is the requirement that each member of the organization must achieve a certain rank within a certain period of time. If they fail to do so, they must leave the organization.

HarryHirsch 13y ago
It's one of those things that work well only in certain circumstances. Most especially a continuous stream of applicants, some of them above average, is needed. At my not-particularly-good university they keep hiring faculty at assistant professor rank. Since the graduate school isn't impressive the applicant quality and publication record isn't great, and someone getting a grant is a rarity. After five years they won't get tenure, the position is re-advertised, more startup money is spent, wash, rinse, repeat. Under these circumstances it would be wiser for them not to shoot for the star performers they won't ever get. The research quality will be just as mediocre, but they can spare themselves the hiring process and save on startup funds.
RyanMcGreal 13y ago
Sounds awful. I work as a programmer, but the only way up at my employer is into management, where I would necessarily have to stop working as a programmer. That would be a step away from what I enjoy doing.
- rictic 13y ago
  A healthy engineering company should have high level positions that are still engineering positions.
  - eitally 13y ago
    The challenge for corporations is to figure out how to keep senior technical staff in technical roles when they legitimately have worked their way into a product ownership role (this is for non-consumer-product companies with dev teams of only a few people) and there may not be a personal with people-manager skills who has the business knowledge to do that part for them.
sitharus 13y ago
That would be very difficult in a software development role. You'd either end up out of dev and in management or you'd have to leave. Everywhere I've worked there's only a few levels where you actually code - right now we have graduate, dev, and senior dev. You'd end up moving your best people to a level where you can't use their skills any more.
- jcheng 13y ago
  Microsoft does have an up-or-out policy, but they take pains to try to avoid the problem you point out. Management is not considered "up" from dev, but a parallel track (whose bottom rung is a little higher than the bottom rung of dev). The top rung of the dev ladder is "Distinguished Engineer" and these people are spoken of in much more hushed and awed tones than any VP. Also the up-or-out policy has exceptions: there are "stable" levels where you are allowed to stay for the rest of your career. IIRC the lowest stable level is Senior Dev (level 63) so if you are hired at level 59, the expectation is that you have the potential to make it to 63; if you earn promotions too slowly or not at all, you'll eventually be let go. This is true even if you do a perfectly adequate job at levels 59-62. It's not a model that would work for every company, obviously...
  - sjs1234 13y ago
    The top dev ladder rung is Technical Fellow (promotion from distinguished engineer.) Except for Dave Cutler, who is a 'senior technical fellow' ... which is the exact same level with a different name.

by kqr2 13y ago

HarryHirsch 13y ago

It's one of those things that work well only in certain circumstances. Most especially a continuous stream of applicants, some of them above average, is needed. At my not-particularly-good university they keep hiring faculty at assistant professor rank. Since the graduate school isn't impressive the applicant quality and publication record isn't great, and someone getting a grant is a rarity. After five years they won't get tenure, the position is re-advertised, more startup money is spent, wash, rinse, repeat. Under these circumstances it would be wiser for them not to shoot for the star performers they won't ever get. The research quality will be just as mediocre, but they can spare themselves the hiring process and save on startup funds.

RyanMcGreal 13y ago

Sounds awful. I work as a programmer, but the only way up at my employer is into management, where I would necessarily have to stop working as a programmer. That would be a step away from what I enjoy doing.

rictic 13y ago
A healthy engineering company should have high level positions that are still engineering positions.
- eitally 13y ago
  The challenge for corporations is to figure out how to keep senior technical staff in technical roles when they legitimately have worked their way into a product ownership role (this is for non-consumer-product companies with dev teams of only a few people) and there may not be a personal with people-manager skills who has the business knowledge to do that part for them.

sitharus 13y ago

That would be very difficult in a software development role. You'd either end up out of dev and in management or you'd have to leave. Everywhere I've worked there's only a few levels where you actually code - right now we have graduate, dev, and senior dev. You'd end up moving your best people to a level where you can't use their skills any more.

jcheng 13y ago
Microsoft does have an up-or-out policy, but they take pains to try to avoid the problem you point out. Management is not considered "up" from dev, but a parallel track (whose bottom rung is a little higher than the bottom rung of dev). The top rung of the dev ladder is "Distinguished Engineer" and these people are spoken of in much more hushed and awed tones than any VP. Also the up-or-out policy has exceptions: there are "stable" levels where you are allowed to stay for the rest of your career. IIRC the lowest stable level is Senior Dev (level 63) so if you are hired at level 59, the expectation is that you have the potential to make it to 63; if you earn promotions too slowly or not at all, you'll eventually be let go. This is true even if you do a perfectly adequate job at levels 59-62. It's not a model that would work for every company, obviously...
- sjs1234 13y ago
  The top dev ladder rung is Technical Fellow (promotion from distinguished engineer.) Except for Dave Cutler, who is a 'senior technical fellow' ... which is the exact same level with a different name.