5 ms·

I am not a conservative, but the first paragraph really turned me off to reading the remainder of this article by asserting that "conservatives and chauvinists"

by bhauer 13y ago

I am not a conservative, but the first paragraph really turned me off to reading the remainder of this article by asserting that "conservatives and chauvinists" tend to endorse the notion that there is an under-representation of women in management because "they are not capable." Speaking as a non-conservative, I find the implication that conservatives believe women to be incapable of management offensive. I believe conservatives would say that there is no single and simple answer to the question but that it has do with the differing career and life goals between men and women--the priorities and decisions that men and women use to guide their decision-making. This is how conservatives explain the wage gap, and the same logic would be applied to the management gender gap. As a non-conservative, dismissing their argument about the wage gap (which boils down to, "You're telling me I could pay $0.72 on the dollar for equal skill? Why in the world would I ever hire men?") out of hand is isolating yourself from a genuine criticism. I believe this introductory paragraph attempts to isolate its argument from genuine criticism by similarly dismissing viable counter-arguments as unworthy before it even begins. I also find the article's juxtaposition of "conservative" alongside "chauvinists" a particularly underhanded and obvious attempt to imply that there is a great deal of overlap between these two groups. If you actually believe conservatives think this way, you'll never actually convince them of anything because you're speaking at them as if they are children. You're not giving their point of view any legitimacy.

AndrewDucker 13y ago
Except, of course, when they do: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10244637/Ukip-treasurer-Women-are-not-competitive-enough-for-the-board-room.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10244637/Ukip-...
- Iterated 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition
- mason240 13y ago
  You heard here first: Stuart Wheeler, some old bean counter in the UK, speaks for all conservative ideology.
mrchucklepants 13y ago
Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who was distracted by that sentence. I barely skimmed the rest of the article.
mblack68 13y ago
I am a woman, 45 years old, building websites for a living. After 13 years, I still prefer to sit down and disappear into the screen and build things. I have natural leadership ability, I have a big personality when required, but I just don't feel motivated by money or rewards to take on the responsibility of leading a team. I watch my colleagues get promoted, all male. And then I watch them try to balance wife, kids, and life. Without their wives, they tend to do poorly at life maintenance. They get fat, or pot-bellies at least, their hair falls out (probably just genetic but still) and after a few years the stress has broken them. The factors of leading means your reward depends on others whom you are unable to really control. So they spend time playing head games with people and taking work home that others can't or won't complete. The handful of women I know in leadership positions also have a stigma attached. Their ego leads just like the males, but the women are considered "too aggressive" and get labeled as such. So with minimal reward (I require double my income to ruin my life), management/leadership is just not an option for me, regardless of my abilities. I suppose living up to my capabilities should be reward enough, but it isn't. Until I get a wife and/or make enough money to pay for the easy leisure and lack of worry I have now, I don't care about the prestige of leadership. Chauvinistic or not, I truly believe if the reward were there, our society would have more women in leadership positions. My personal life has a higher "fee" than men for living and breathing my job. Pay me that fee, I will make a go of it.
- Dewie 13y ago
  > They get fat, or pot-bellies at least, their hair falls out (probably just genetic but still) What "but still"? What is it about that that still supports your point, even if it is entirely out of ones hands if your hair falls out? If it is indeed mostly/totally genetic, why continue to look at it as a symptom of "letting oneself go"? That's just a stigmatizing attitude to hold on too (if it is indeed mostly genetical).
  - mblack68 13y ago
    Getting fat is also stigmatized. Sigh. I know. Bald men and short men have hurdles, too.
enraged_camel 13y ago
>>If you actually believe conservatives think this way, you'll never actually convince them of anything because you're speaking at them as if they are children. You're not giving their point of view any legitimacy. I don't want to turn this into a political debate, but the conservative ideology does lack legitimacy for the most part. The reason the term "conservative" is used is because the person is resistant to alternative points of view as well as information that contradicts their perspective. This is why those who reject climate change are conservatives: they are rejecting or ignoring scientific evidence because it doesn't fit their worldview. I don't treat conservatives as children. That does children a huge disservice. Children by their nature are curious and they want to learn new things. Conservatives in contrast are stuck in certain mindsets (that revolve around Just-World Fallacy) and are scared of change in general.
- bhauer 13y ago
  I don't mean this as hostile as it will unfortunately likely come across, but, do you not see a hint of irony here?
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    I do see a hint of irony. I'm open to changing my opinion on what conservatism is if I encounter enough data that overwhelmingly points in the other direction: that conservatives are very accepting of new ideas and viewpoints. So far, I have not.
    - bhauer 13y ago
      Very well. As another anecdote, I have met many conservatives who are willing to discuss and debate ideas. None of these conservatives I have met has acted or said anything that suggests they believe women are incapable of management. I have met chauvinists and I have met conservatives. I don't see a whole lot of correlation.
      - enraged_camel 13y ago
pessimizer 13y ago
If there's any difference between the conservative and liberal positions on women's rights or capabilities in comparison to men's, the conservative position tends towards the restriction of women's rights and a characterization of women as having less capability in decision making or leadership. That the conservative position has liberalized over time to meet the liberal position in a lot of places and on a lot of subjects is good. That doesn't change the fact that when the conservative position differs from the liberal position, it differs by offering some sort of biological or religious defense of discrimination against women. >If you actually believe conservatives think this way, you'll never actually convince them of anything because you're speaking at them as if they are children. I don't think that observation is controversial, or that children are the ones who either originate or maintain these beliefs in society. Also, I don't think that you should pick your beliefs about reality based on their marketing potential rather than observation and the historical record.
- bhauer 13y ago
  It appears "children" was too specific a choice of word. Perhaps a better fit would have been "simpleton." The point being that when we engage those of opposite views by dismissing their views out of hand, we usually make ourselves feel righteous in doing so by rationalizing that they are simpletons. They are beneath our level of understanding and any attempt we make to sway them is hopeless. I don't mean to imply that the author was trying to persuade the opposition's point of view. Rather merely that the introductory paragraph exhibits the hallmarks of a closed mind, and unfortunately one that disingenuously feigns being open. I find that particularly disappointing. These labels we assign to political points of view are so broad that I find it distracting to dwell too much on historical associations of each word. Historical perspective cannot be dismissed, but if the present and past differ, I'd rather consider the present. On this subject, what do conservatives think now about women in leadership and management positions? I honestly cannot say with a straight face that modern conservatives think women are incapable of management. In fact I feel perpetuating that myth only serves to diminish whatever progress they have made toward our point of view, as if we're moving the goal posts and sneering at them for even trying. It seems like petty politics and not genuine effort to improve matters.
moocowduckquack 13y ago
"If you actually believe conservatives think this way, you'll never actually convince them of anything because you're speaking at them as if they are children." Also, It is a chauvinistic position to claim that about conservatives as it seems to make an assumption that conservative=male. I personally would not class myself as conservative as I tend to disagree strongly with their policies, however I do not think that people like Thatcher or Widdicombe believe that women are not capable of leadership and it would be hard to claim that they are not conservatives.

by bhauer 13y ago

AndrewDucker 13y ago

Except, of course, when they do: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10244637/Ukip-treasurer-Women-are-not-competitive-enough-for-the-board-room.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10244637/Ukip-...

Iterated 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition
mason240 13y ago
You heard here first: Stuart Wheeler, some old bean counter in the UK, speaks for all conservative ideology.

mrchucklepants 13y ago

Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who was distracted by that sentence. I barely skimmed the rest of the article.

mblack68 13y ago

I am a woman, 45 years old, building websites for a living. After 13 years, I still prefer to sit down and disappear into the screen and build things. I have natural leadership ability, I have a big personality when required, but I just don't feel motivated by money or rewards to take on the responsibility of leading a team. I watch my colleagues get promoted, all male. And then I watch them try to balance wife, kids, and life. Without their wives, they tend to do poorly at life maintenance. They get fat, or pot-bellies at least, their hair falls out (probably just genetic but still) and after a few years the stress has broken them. The factors of leading means your reward depends on others whom you are unable to really control. So they spend time playing head games with people and taking work home that others can't or won't complete. The handful of women I know in leadership positions also have a stigma attached. Their ego leads just like the males, but the women are considered "too aggressive" and get labeled as such. So with minimal reward (I require double my income to ruin my life), management/leadership is just not an option for me, regardless of my abilities. I suppose living up to my capabilities should be reward enough, but it isn't. Until I get a wife and/or make enough money to pay for the easy leisure and lack of worry I have now, I don't care about the prestige of leadership. Chauvinistic or not, I truly believe if the reward were there, our society would have more women in leadership positions. My personal life has a higher "fee" than men for living and breathing my job. Pay me that fee, I will make a go of it.

Dewie 13y ago
> They get fat, or pot-bellies at least, their hair falls out (probably just genetic but still) What "but still"? What is it about that that still supports your point, even if it is entirely out of ones hands if your hair falls out? If it is indeed mostly/totally genetic, why continue to look at it as a symptom of "letting oneself go"? That's just a stigmatizing attitude to hold on too (if it is indeed mostly genetical).
- mblack68 13y ago
  Getting fat is also stigmatized. Sigh. I know. Bald men and short men have hurdles, too.

enraged_camel 13y ago

>>If you actually believe conservatives think this way, you'll never actually convince them of anything because you're speaking at them as if they are children. You're not giving their point of view any legitimacy. I don't want to turn this into a political debate, but the conservative ideology does lack legitimacy for the most part. The reason the term "conservative" is used is because the person is resistant to alternative points of view as well as information that contradicts their perspective. This is why those who reject climate change are conservatives: they are rejecting or ignoring scientific evidence because it doesn't fit their worldview. I don't treat conservatives as children. That does children a huge disservice. Children by their nature are curious and they want to learn new things. Conservatives in contrast are stuck in certain mindsets (that revolve around Just-World Fallacy) and are scared of change in general.

bhauer 13y ago
I don't mean this as hostile as it will unfortunately likely come across, but, do you not see a hint of irony here?
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  I do see a hint of irony. I'm open to changing my opinion on what conservatism is if I encounter enough data that overwhelmingly points in the other direction: that conservatives are very accepting of new ideas and viewpoints. So far, I have not.
  - bhauer 13y ago
    Very well. As another anecdote, I have met many conservatives who are willing to discuss and debate ideas. None of these conservatives I have met has acted or said anything that suggests they believe women are incapable of management. I have met chauvinists and I have met conservatives. I don't see a whole lot of correlation.
    - enraged_camel 13y ago

pessimizer 13y ago

If there's any difference between the conservative and liberal positions on women's rights or capabilities in comparison to men's, the conservative position tends towards the restriction of women's rights and a characterization of women as having less capability in decision making or leadership. That the conservative position has liberalized over time to meet the liberal position in a lot of places and on a lot of subjects is good. That doesn't change the fact that when the conservative position differs from the liberal position, it differs by offering some sort of biological or religious defense of discrimination against women. >If you actually believe conservatives think this way, you'll never actually convince them of anything because you're speaking at them as if they are children. I don't think that observation is controversial, or that children are the ones who either originate or maintain these beliefs in society. Also, I don't think that you should pick your beliefs about reality based on their marketing potential rather than observation and the historical record.

bhauer 13y ago
It appears "children" was too specific a choice of word. Perhaps a better fit would have been "simpleton." The point being that when we engage those of opposite views by dismissing their views out of hand, we usually make ourselves feel righteous in doing so by rationalizing that they are simpletons. They are beneath our level of understanding and any attempt we make to sway them is hopeless. I don't mean to imply that the author was trying to persuade the opposition's point of view. Rather merely that the introductory paragraph exhibits the hallmarks of a closed mind, and unfortunately one that disingenuously feigns being open. I find that particularly disappointing. These labels we assign to political points of view are so broad that I find it distracting to dwell too much on historical associations of each word. Historical perspective cannot be dismissed, but if the present and past differ, I'd rather consider the present. On this subject, what do conservatives think now about women in leadership and management positions? I honestly cannot say with a straight face that modern conservatives think women are incapable of management. In fact I feel perpetuating that myth only serves to diminish whatever progress they have made toward our point of view, as if we're moving the goal posts and sneering at them for even trying. It seems like petty politics and not genuine effort to improve matters.

moocowduckquack 13y ago

"If you actually believe conservatives think this way, you'll never actually convince them of anything because you're speaking at them as if they are children." Also, It is a chauvinistic position to claim that about conservatives as it seems to make an assumption that conservative=male. I personally would not class myself as conservative as I tend to disagree strongly with their policies, however I do not think that people like Thatcher or Widdicombe believe that women are not capable of leadership and it would be hard to claim that they are not conservatives.