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I appreciate you taking the time to write out a detailed response, but you should give me the same respect I have shown you. Avoid comments about naivety and i

by tsally 17y ago

I appreciate you taking the time to write out a detailed response, but you should give me the same respect I have shown you. Avoid comments about naivety and instead focus on the actual content at hand. Exhibit the maturity that your writing and education seem to indicate. I have two rather simple views: (1) An undergraduate degree is the correct choice for a person in the vast majority of cases and (2) Taken as a whole, the research from all departments in our university system is valuable. It seems that we are primarily addressing (2) here. Now, I will propose to you a slightly more complex statement than (2). Something can be both valuable and contained in an intellectually bankrupt system. You'll notice, looking back at the words I typed, that I never even attempted to address the bankruptcy of the intellectual communities found in universities. The reason why I never made such an attempt is because I agree with you. The ability to publish a radically dissenting view is reserved for a special type of intellectual, one who is both particularly famous and smart. It certainly is one of the largest problems that needs to be solved in academia. However, this problem is certainly not justification to disregard the entire output of academia, as you seem to claim. I think you'll be disappointed to find that your lengthly and informed post is essentially wasted on me, because I agree with you about corruption. You've made certain subpoints that I do not agree with, but on the whole the thrust of your argument is correct. I understand and have personally experienced the race and ethnic operas that are so distracting from true education. The three professors I brought up were meant to be examples of value, not examples of people moving against the academic grain. I am happy to hear that you have read Achebe, and you should read Powers as well. He is a particularly interesting character, and I think his work will serve as our moral compass as our society becomes more dependent on technology. I will briefly point out that his views on specialization do not contradict my point as you seem to think; they actually support my point. The fact is that he decided to become a professor at a university. Why would he do that if he had your world view? Anyway, Powers is enough by himself to disprove your assertion about academic research as garbage. One of the projects that Powers works on is the Seedbed Initiative at UIUC-- collaborative research between the computer science, english, and music department on university education. I doubt even your cynicism can degrade the value in the Seedbed project. Our cultural computing program in general is pretty positive in that regard. I encourage you to read about some of the research being done here, and I'd be interested to know how it fits in with your preconceived notions. http://cultural.cs.uiuc.edu/Seedbed/ http://cultural.cs.uiuc.edu/Seedbed/ http://cultural.cs.uiuc.edu/ http://cultural.cs.uiuc.edu/ I have many radical views, about education, economics, technology, and more. I developed all these views at university and I am sure I will develop more before I graduate. Apparently I survived the brainwashing that you imagine in your mind. I think it is particularly ironic that you mention joining a rebellion; people with your attitude simply will never start a rebellion. Your bias, fear, and ego cause you to view everyone else as braindead sheep. If you were actually going to start a rebellion, I'd be one of the people you'd want! Consider the humor (or sadness) in this situation. You've been talking to a fairly radical human being who made a small claim about the value of the output of our university research, and you end by concluding that I am a native shill. Yes, universities can and should do far better. But the alternative is to end up with your world view, another type of brainwashed propaganda in itself. Arguing with people like you always makes me extraordinarily sad. You exhibit all the characteristics of a racist, lumping all the people of a certain type into one group, unable to see the subtleties in the situation. Anyone who even tries to defend a part of the system must be braindead, right? Are things really that black and white to you? It is my hope that you drop the 'more enlightened than thou' crap so we can have a beneficial discussion.

bokonist 17y ago
Avoid comments about naivety and instead focus on the actual content at hand. Exhibit the maturity that your writing and education seem to indicate. The internet is an autistic medium. When you called my views "dangerous", I thought you were taking the discussion a little too seriously, so I responded with a playful retort (notice the wink). Obviously, the humor was lost in transmission. Regardless, I am not organizing any kind of rebellion. This is simply a fun intellectual tussle. When I start gathering troops on the moons of Yavin IV, we can talk about dangerous. Anyway, Powers is enough by himself to disprove your assertion about academic research as garbage. I already acknowledged in a previous comment that there was some good stuff coming out of the university. It's just mostly garbage in the humanities. It's a high enough ratio of garbage to fully justify the "The anti-college bias in the hacker community" that you originally complained about. (2) Taken as a whole, the research from all departments in our university system is valuable. It seems that we are primarily addressing (2) here. The relevant questions as I see it are: 1) Does the average student have a net increase to his knowledge from attending the university? 2) If yes, is there a net increase from the classes and school work? 3) If yes to 2), is the net increase greater than what the student would otherwise be doing. 4) If yes to 3), is it worth the money? 5) Is a university education worth subsidization from the government? 6) Is the net output of university research a net positive? 7) Is the research worth subsidization from the government? 8) If no to 5), should the university be actually disestablished- ie, all ties between it and the government cut off? My answers: 1) Debatable. Some courses are quite good, especially in the sciences. But there are a number of courses that are actually destructive of knowledge. In several of the fields I know very well - sociology, economics, and architecture - the main output of the courses seems to be elaborate lessons on why 1 + 1 is 3, and why ugliness is beautiful and beauty is ugly. I actually think the net effect of architecture education in particular is actually negative. 2) Most of my learning in college came from clubs, other students, and independent reading. The net effect of classroom education is probably negative for most people. 3) In my case, I have learned way more outside of the classroom than in it. The benefit of the college years was lots of free time. 4) Unless you are rich, it's not worth paying sticker price for a private college. The price of a public college is not much greater than the cost of living in a city, so you should probably go just because it's a lot of fun. But you should rely on yourself and peers for actually learning, not classes. 5) I'd say absolutely not. 6) In some of the sciences the output is definitely a net positive. In the social sciences, law, architecture definitely not. Those fields have done incredible damage. In literature or history, well, it's about 99% garbage with 1% guys like Powers, David Fischer or Bryan Ward-Perkins. So I guess that's a net positive, if only because bad literature doesn't harm anyone, you can just ignore it. 7) Outside the scientific fields, no. There is simply not enough good output to justify the hundreds of billions of dollars that universities receive. 8) I am a disestablishmentarian - especially with regards to the humanities. The government should not be in the business of telling its subjects what to think. There should be no subsidies. All credentialing laws requiring a degree to perform a profession should be revoked. All laws that allocate funds based on holding a PHD or institutional affiliation should be revoked. Universities should lose their non-profit status and be taxed like everyone else. I encourage you to read about some of the research being done here, and I'd be interested to know how it fits in with your preconceived notions. Well, there seems to be no way for me to actually view the output of the project. So until I can see the results, or see evidence of someone outside the university enjoying the results, it does indeed fit my notions that most academic work seems to be produced for the benefit of those producing it, with little contribution to society as a whole.

by tsally 17y ago

bokonist 17y ago

Avoid comments about naivety and instead focus on the actual content at hand. Exhibit the maturity that your writing and education seem to indicate. The internet is an autistic medium. When you called my views "dangerous", I thought you were taking the discussion a little too seriously, so I responded with a playful retort (notice the wink). Obviously, the humor was lost in transmission. Regardless, I am not organizing any kind of rebellion. This is simply a fun intellectual tussle. When I start gathering troops on the moons of Yavin IV, we can talk about dangerous. Anyway, Powers is enough by himself to disprove your assertion about academic research as garbage. I already acknowledged in a previous comment that there was some good stuff coming out of the university. It's just mostly garbage in the humanities. It's a high enough ratio of garbage to fully justify the "The anti-college bias in the hacker community" that you originally complained about. (2) Taken as a whole, the research from all departments in our university system is valuable. It seems that we are primarily addressing (2) here. The relevant questions as I see it are: 1) Does the average student have a net increase to his knowledge from attending the university? 2) If yes, is there a net increase from the classes and school work? 3) If yes to 2), is the net increase greater than what the student would otherwise be doing. 4) If yes to 3), is it worth the money? 5) Is a university education worth subsidization from the government? 6) Is the net output of university research a net positive? 7) Is the research worth subsidization from the government? 8) If no to 5), should the university be actually disestablished- ie, all ties between it and the government cut off? My answers: 1) Debatable. Some courses are quite good, especially in the sciences. But there are a number of courses that are actually destructive of knowledge. In several of the fields I know very well - sociology, economics, and architecture - the main output of the courses seems to be elaborate lessons on why 1 + 1 is 3, and why ugliness is beautiful and beauty is ugly. I actually think the net effect of architecture education in particular is actually negative. 2) Most of my learning in college came from clubs, other students, and independent reading. The net effect of classroom education is probably negative for most people. 3) In my case, I have learned way more outside of the classroom than in it. The benefit of the college years was lots of free time. 4) Unless you are rich, it's not worth paying sticker price for a private college. The price of a public college is not much greater than the cost of living in a city, so you should probably go just because it's a lot of fun. But you should rely on yourself and peers for actually learning, not classes. 5) I'd say absolutely not. 6) In some of the sciences the output is definitely a net positive. In the social sciences, law, architecture definitely not. Those fields have done incredible damage. In literature or history, well, it's about 99% garbage with 1% guys like Powers, David Fischer or Bryan Ward-Perkins. So I guess that's a net positive, if only because bad literature doesn't harm anyone, you can just ignore it. 7) Outside the scientific fields, no. There is simply not enough good output to justify the hundreds of billions of dollars that universities receive. 8) I am a disestablishmentarian - especially with regards to the humanities. The government should not be in the business of telling its subjects what to think. There should be no subsidies. All credentialing laws requiring a degree to perform a profession should be revoked. All laws that allocate funds based on holding a PHD or institutional affiliation should be revoked. Universities should lose their non-profit status and be taxed like everyone else. I encourage you to read about some of the research being done here, and I'd be interested to know how it fits in with your preconceived notions. Well, there seems to be no way for me to actually view the output of the project. So until I can see the results, or see evidence of someone outside the university enjoying the results, it does indeed fit my notions that most academic work seems to be produced for the benefit of those producing it, with little contribution to society as a whole.