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This is sick. The idea of two headed dog is not as sick in itself as is the clear misery these animals are experiencing.

deusclovis 13y ago
Yes, it is absolutely horrendous. I was trying to imagine what it would be like to be aware of being a rider of a host body, separated from my body, unable to control my whereabouts.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Probably not that different from being paralyzed. I doubt dogs in such a situation would get very far into the more philosophical and abstract objections a human in that situation would probably experience.
  - deusclovis 13y ago
    Yes, I agree. Probably not into the more philosophical objections and assessments. But there's probably a stark difference between being aware of riding a wheelchair and riding another human body...The latter being aware of what has been done to your body..
- lostlogin 13y ago
  I'm not in any way agreeing that what was done was ok, however I have observed that my dog didn't seem entirely self aware. He use to attack his legs, tail, farts etc. He would recoil in horror when he hurt himself.
  - deusclovis 13y ago
    Oh okay, not a big dog person here. haha. Interesting.
schrijver 13y ago
> But Demikhov’s work, while aesthetically disturbing and undoubtedly shocking (…) led to major gains in organ transplant research without compromising human health. His experiments, especially the organ transplants—he was the first to successfully complete both heart and lung transplants in animals — paved the way for the human version, leading to a procedure that has clearly saved countless lives over the ensuing decades.
userulluipeste 13y ago
In Buddha's view life itself is a misery/suffering (his term was "Dukkha"). Yes, I can agree with you and support imposing limits upon our world and evolution, or I can recognize that we might be subjective in our assertions, much too subjective sometimes.
cdi 13y ago
Come on people. What about thousands and thousands of disease model lab rats, genetically engineered to suffer cancer and other horrible illnesses? Should we stop biological and drug research? Misery is electrons flying in the brain. Would you empathize with a computer program simulating pain model, when pain level is increased, or when computer is powered off? Animal is a mechanism. Canidae in nature have no problem with killing or inflicting suffering btw.
- StavrosK 13y ago
  Humans are animals too, and we empathize with them, so there has to be a line somewhere. You either don't empathize with anyone, or you empathize with everyone. We currently believe that it's worth sacrificing mice to make people's lives better, but we would do that, we're people. Hopefully, in the future, no living being will have to suffer for any reason. > Canidae in nature have no problem with killing or inflicting suffering btw. If you want to be held to the standards of dogs, nobody will stop you. I'd like to think I know better.
  - astrobe_ 13y ago
    Morality applies between humans. Dogs, bears, sharks have no problem tearing you into pieces if their instincts tell them they have to. Other hunting animals have no problem eating their pray alive if they don't have to kill them first. Animals don't play by our rules. Empathy towards animals really is a side-effect of empathy mechanisms between humans, that we probably need in order to live in society. These side effects shouldn't influence too much your attitude toward animals.
    - StavrosK 13y ago
      I disagree. I believe that beings that are capable of feeling pain shouldn't.
  - cdi 13y ago
    >so there has to be a line somewhere. And that line is human consciousness. I empathize with humans and animals too(especially mammalian), of course. But I choose not to be swayed by feelings when I think about policy. Preservation of nature doesn't require empathy, and justice among humans doesn't require it after utilitarian principle is chosen. Domesticated animals are born and live for our utility. As long as we don't consider animal pet ownership as equal to slavery, I don't see how animal experimentation is problematic.
rsynnott 13y ago
As far as medical research goes, it's fairly low on the horror scale.

deusclovis 13y ago

Yes, it is absolutely horrendous. I was trying to imagine what it would be like to be aware of being a rider of a host body, separated from my body, unable to control my whereabouts.

jlgreco 13y ago
Probably not that different from being paralyzed. I doubt dogs in such a situation would get very far into the more philosophical and abstract objections a human in that situation would probably experience.
- deusclovis 13y ago
  Yes, I agree. Probably not into the more philosophical objections and assessments. But there's probably a stark difference between being aware of riding a wheelchair and riding another human body...The latter being aware of what has been done to your body..
lostlogin 13y ago
I'm not in any way agreeing that what was done was ok, however I have observed that my dog didn't seem entirely self aware. He use to attack his legs, tail, farts etc. He would recoil in horror when he hurt himself.
- deusclovis 13y ago
  Oh okay, not a big dog person here. haha. Interesting.

schrijver 13y ago

> But Demikhov’s work, while aesthetically disturbing and undoubtedly shocking (…) led to major gains in organ transplant research without compromising human health. His experiments, especially the organ transplants—he was the first to successfully complete both heart and lung transplants in animals — paved the way for the human version, leading to a procedure that has clearly saved countless lives over the ensuing decades.

userulluipeste 13y ago

In Buddha's view life itself is a misery/suffering (his term was "Dukkha"). Yes, I can agree with you and support imposing limits upon our world and evolution, or I can recognize that we might be subjective in our assertions, much too subjective sometimes.

cdi 13y ago

Come on people. What about thousands and thousands of disease model lab rats, genetically engineered to suffer cancer and other horrible illnesses? Should we stop biological and drug research? Misery is electrons flying in the brain. Would you empathize with a computer program simulating pain model, when pain level is increased, or when computer is powered off? Animal is a mechanism. Canidae in nature have no problem with killing or inflicting suffering btw.

StavrosK 13y ago
Humans are animals too, and we empathize with them, so there has to be a line somewhere. You either don't empathize with anyone, or you empathize with everyone. We currently believe that it's worth sacrificing mice to make people's lives better, but we would do that, we're people. Hopefully, in the future, no living being will have to suffer for any reason. > Canidae in nature have no problem with killing or inflicting suffering btw. If you want to be held to the standards of dogs, nobody will stop you. I'd like to think I know better.
- astrobe_ 13y ago
  Morality applies between humans. Dogs, bears, sharks have no problem tearing you into pieces if their instincts tell them they have to. Other hunting animals have no problem eating their pray alive if they don't have to kill them first. Animals don't play by our rules. Empathy towards animals really is a side-effect of empathy mechanisms between humans, that we probably need in order to live in society. These side effects shouldn't influence too much your attitude toward animals.
  - StavrosK 13y ago
    I disagree. I believe that beings that are capable of feeling pain shouldn't.
- cdi 13y ago
  >so there has to be a line somewhere. And that line is human consciousness. I empathize with humans and animals too(especially mammalian), of course. But I choose not to be swayed by feelings when I think about policy. Preservation of nature doesn't require empathy, and justice among humans doesn't require it after utilitarian principle is chosen. Domesticated animals are born and live for our utility. As long as we don't consider animal pet ownership as equal to slavery, I don't see how animal experimentation is problematic.

rsynnott 13y ago

As far as medical research goes, it's fairly low on the horror scale.