6 ms·

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall

by jnbiche 13y ago

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, and much more than their employers (the American people). This is extremely disconcerting. What we know and now see confirmed officially about the surveillance is pretty stunning. Exactly how bad is this? Is all of congress tapped? All the governors? Snowden hinted at this. What the fuck is going on in my country? 2. So, if it's so bad, why won't the honorable Sens. Udall and Wyden take a stand and reveal the wrongdoings on the Senate floor? As I understand the law, they cannot be charged for anything revealed on the Senate floor. And even if there were a way to charge them, I'd like to think it would be political suicide for any president to try. These two gentleman swore an oath to the U.S. constitution. Why won't they uphold it? They are in a unique position to do so. The fact that they keep making these ominous statements is starting to seem more like a cover-your-ass strategy than an honest attempt to stop the illegal activities.

Zoomla 13y ago
They don't want to go to jail, maybe.
- einhverfr 13y ago
  That would be an interesting trial. If only we'd have politicians with the courage to take on such a crusade.
LoganCale 13y ago
They'll be kicked out of the committees that allow them access to that classified data and will be unable to do anything further to try and fight these things.
- jnbiche 13y ago
  So their precious committee appointment is more important than their oath? Really, if that's all that's holding them back, then I've lost any respect I have for them. As things stand, they've been able to do very little to "fight these things" even sitting on the committee. What we need right now is to know the full extent of the damage. And they swore an oath to protect the constitution. Any fool can see what an existential threat this is to our constitution and country.
  - LoganCale 13y ago
    Their committee appointment is important to us, not just them. It's better to have a few allies on these committees, even if their hands are tied, than to have none at all. They've done more than most have been able to do, including calling out NSA lies.
    - jnbiche 13y ago
      I strongly disagree, but I respect that we're on the same side here, so I'll very carefully consider your logic. But in return, I'd ask you to carefully consider my argument, which is that we need to know the current damage right now far more than we need allies in the Senate IC in the future.
      - argumentum 13y ago
        If what they can give us "right now" won't win us the war, we lose a valuable resource to win the war over the long term. Afaik, these are two of the few principled people with power in the legislature .. let's give them the benefit of the doubt.
        SimHacker 13y ago
        Just assume the worst. That's as close as you can possibly get to knowing everything right now for sure. I just hope that Snowden thought to take a copy of Clapper's (any anyone else responsible's) internet browsing history, or at least is creative enough to forge some terrible blackmail material and leak it, just to do to them what they're doing to us.
ihsw 13y ago
> Is all of congress tapped? All the governors? Snowden hinted at this. What the fuck is going on in my country? I'm going to assume the worst, which would be that the NSA is used as a tool of blackmail by nefarious parties whom the NSA relies on. Key House and Senate members put in a good word for the NSA and then they get some "free" information on their opponents, at which point they convince their opponents to "trade" wins with the opposing party's leadership. Those in on the game get to continue their political career because the party leaderships are coordinating wins between each-other through bipartisan-orchestrated gerrymandering, and "suicide" elections where elected officials intentionally lose their elections in order to boost the profile of their friendly opponents. Those whom are bucking the chain of command are ostracised and relegated to the fringes (eg: the Pauls).
- gasull 13y ago
  They are blackmailing and targeting anyone that is in the way to their goal of total surveillance. This hasn't gotten enough attention: US targets lie-detector coaches following Edward Snowden affair http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1297622/us-targets-lie-detector-coaches-following-edward-snowden-affair http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1297622/us-targets-li...
  - ihsw 13y ago
    That's hilariously bad. Polygraph examinations are awful, they're little else than measurements of how people deal with stress and there's no difference between "passing" the examination and "beating" it. Personally I think it's appalling that they're still regarded as "lie detectors."
  - amirmc 13y ago
    Choice quote: "Nothing like this has been done before," John Schwartz, a US Customs and Border Protection official, said of the legal approach. "Most certainly our nation's security will be enhanced. There are a lot of bad people out there. This will help us remove some of those pests from society." Regardless of how anyone may feel about 'lie-detector' tests, this is chilling.
- 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
bengrunfeld 13y ago
I think right now making noise in any way is a respectable move. If they go to far, then NSA might retaliate against them, and no legal protection in the world would save them. If they keep going the way they are right now, it will keep this issue in the public eye, which is exactly where it needs to be. Yes, the system is totally fucked, but give them credit for having the balls to say something at all.
olefoo 13y ago
Wyden & Udall are constrained by their roles within the system; they have both been trying to encourage people to ask the right questions, but they are not going to break the laws they are sworn to uphold. What we need is an independent congressional commission with the power to unilaterally declassify information that is not directly related to ongoing operations ( i.e. anything naming specific operatives or live intelligence about events now in the field would be exempt. But descriptions of scope, and summary reports of the outcomes of programs would be allowed. ) so that the American public can get an idea of what is being done in it's name. This commission to include in it's scope psychological warfare operations and propaganda directed at American audiences. And a full investigation of any information sharing regarding American citizens with other agencies of the Executive branch. We need this now. These stains on our nations honor can only be cleaned by sunlight.
- jnbiche 13y ago
  Just to be clear, the only thing that Udall and Wyden are actually sworn to is this oath: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."
  - mentat 13y ago
    They swore other oaths when getting clearances to be sure.
    - jnbiche 13y ago
      It turns out you're half right. I knew congressmen didn't have to undergo security clearances. But it turns out that starting in the 104th congress (1997-1999), they are required to swear a secrecy oath. I still think the oath to the constitution is far more important to the integrity of our country, but I was wrong that they swore no other oath.
beedogs 13y ago
> What the fuck is going on in my country? The short answer is that it isn't your country anymore.
- TruthElixirX 13y ago
  It was never your country. You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception. In the 80's it wasn't the country for gays. In the 50's it wasn't the country for non-whites. In the 1900's it wasn't the country for women. Before the 1900's it was only old white land owners. The ruling class has just expanded to not be exclusively old white men. And the oppressed class has expanded in the same way.
  - Amadou 13y ago
    You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception. We aren't even close to that. So far the NSA hasn't done anything like beat someone and leave them to die in the road. I'm totally on board with the idea that pervasive surveillance smothers society if for no other reason than its presence causes self-censorship like the groklaw situation. But until it comes out that the NSA has been maiming and killing innocents we aren't on the level of what those minorities have had to suffer.
    - joshfraser 13y ago
      They've been supplying much of the intelligence data that we use to fly drones over Afghanistan, Iraq and Yemen killing hundreds of innocent people in the process.
      - Amadou 13y ago
        We've been killing innocents abroad long before the NSA got involved. The NSA's domestic surveillance does not change that aspect of american life.
    - JackpotDen 13y ago
chanux 13y ago
I'd like to think it would be political suicide for any president I am not an American and have no idea how politics work in the US but Obama is basically a political Zombie by now. He can do whatever he wants now right?
btilly 13y ago
Before getting access to classified information, they also swore an oath to not reveal it. Even if they can't be sued (which I do not know is true), they'd still be breaking their sworn word.

by jnbiche 13y ago

Zoomla 13y ago

They don't want to go to jail, maybe.

einhverfr 13y ago
That would be an interesting trial. If only we'd have politicians with the courage to take on such a crusade.

LoganCale 13y ago

They'll be kicked out of the committees that allow them access to that classified data and will be unable to do anything further to try and fight these things.

jnbiche 13y ago
So their precious committee appointment is more important than their oath? Really, if that's all that's holding them back, then I've lost any respect I have for them. As things stand, they've been able to do very little to "fight these things" even sitting on the committee. What we need right now is to know the full extent of the damage. And they swore an oath to protect the constitution. Any fool can see what an existential threat this is to our constitution and country.
- LoganCale 13y ago
  Their committee appointment is important to us, not just them. It's better to have a few allies on these committees, even if their hands are tied, than to have none at all. They've done more than most have been able to do, including calling out NSA lies.
  - jnbiche 13y ago
    I strongly disagree, but I respect that we're on the same side here, so I'll very carefully consider your logic. But in return, I'd ask you to carefully consider my argument, which is that we need to know the current damage right now far more than we need allies in the Senate IC in the future.
    - argumentum 13y ago
      If what they can give us "right now" won't win us the war, we lose a valuable resource to win the war over the long term. Afaik, these are two of the few principled people with power in the legislature .. let's give them the benefit of the doubt.
      - SimHacker 13y ago
        Just assume the worst. That's as close as you can possibly get to knowing everything right now for sure. I just hope that Snowden thought to take a copy of Clapper's (any anyone else responsible's) internet browsing history, or at least is creative enough to forge some terrible blackmail material and leak it, just to do to them what they're doing to us.

ihsw 13y ago

> Is all of congress tapped? All the governors? Snowden hinted at this. What the fuck is going on in my country? I'm going to assume the worst, which would be that the NSA is used as a tool of blackmail by nefarious parties whom the NSA relies on. Key House and Senate members put in a good word for the NSA and then they get some "free" information on their opponents, at which point they convince their opponents to "trade" wins with the opposing party's leadership. Those in on the game get to continue their political career because the party leaderships are coordinating wins between each-other through bipartisan-orchestrated gerrymandering, and "suicide" elections where elected officials intentionally lose their elections in order to boost the profile of their friendly opponents. Those whom are bucking the chain of command are ostracised and relegated to the fringes (eg: the Pauls).

gasull 13y ago
They are blackmailing and targeting anyone that is in the way to their goal of total surveillance. This hasn't gotten enough attention: US targets lie-detector coaches following Edward Snowden affair http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1297622/us-targets-lie-detector-coaches-following-edward-snowden-affair http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1297622/us-targets-li...
- ihsw 13y ago
  That's hilariously bad. Polygraph examinations are awful, they're little else than measurements of how people deal with stress and there's no difference between "passing" the examination and "beating" it. Personally I think it's appalling that they're still regarded as "lie detectors."
- amirmc 13y ago
  Choice quote: "Nothing like this has been done before," John Schwartz, a US Customs and Border Protection official, said of the legal approach. "Most certainly our nation's security will be enhanced. There are a lot of bad people out there. This will help us remove some of those pests from society." Regardless of how anyone may feel about 'lie-detector' tests, this is chilling.
13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

bengrunfeld 13y ago

I think right now making noise in any way is a respectable move. If they go to far, then NSA might retaliate against them, and no legal protection in the world would save them. If they keep going the way they are right now, it will keep this issue in the public eye, which is exactly where it needs to be. Yes, the system is totally fucked, but give them credit for having the balls to say something at all.

olefoo 13y ago

Wyden & Udall are constrained by their roles within the system; they have both been trying to encourage people to ask the right questions, but they are not going to break the laws they are sworn to uphold. What we need is an independent congressional commission with the power to unilaterally declassify information that is not directly related to ongoing operations ( i.e. anything naming specific operatives or live intelligence about events now in the field would be exempt. But descriptions of scope, and summary reports of the outcomes of programs would be allowed. ) so that the American public can get an idea of what is being done in it's name. This commission to include in it's scope psychological warfare operations and propaganda directed at American audiences. And a full investigation of any information sharing regarding American citizens with other agencies of the Executive branch. We need this now. These stains on our nations honor can only be cleaned by sunlight.

jnbiche 13y ago
Just to be clear, the only thing that Udall and Wyden are actually sworn to is this oath: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."
- mentat 13y ago
  They swore other oaths when getting clearances to be sure.
  - jnbiche 13y ago
    It turns out you're half right. I knew congressmen didn't have to undergo security clearances. But it turns out that starting in the 104th congress (1997-1999), they are required to swear a secrecy oath. I still think the oath to the constitution is far more important to the integrity of our country, but I was wrong that they swore no other oath.

beedogs 13y ago

> What the fuck is going on in my country? The short answer is that it isn't your country anymore.

TruthElixirX 13y ago
It was never your country. You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception. In the 80's it wasn't the country for gays. In the 50's it wasn't the country for non-whites. In the 1900's it wasn't the country for women. Before the 1900's it was only old white land owners. The ruling class has just expanded to not be exclusively old white men. And the oppressed class has expanded in the same way.
- Amadou 13y ago
  You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception. We aren't even close to that. So far the NSA hasn't done anything like beat someone and leave them to die in the road. I'm totally on board with the idea that pervasive surveillance smothers society if for no other reason than its presence causes self-censorship like the groklaw situation. But until it comes out that the NSA has been maiming and killing innocents we aren't on the level of what those minorities have had to suffer.
  - joshfraser 13y ago
    They've been supplying much of the intelligence data that we use to fly drones over Afghanistan, Iraq and Yemen killing hundreds of innocent people in the process.
    - Amadou 13y ago
      We've been killing innocents abroad long before the NSA got involved. The NSA's domestic surveillance does not change that aspect of american life.
  - JackpotDen 13y ago

chanux 13y ago

I'd like to think it would be political suicide for any president I am not an American and have no idea how politics work in the US but Obama is basically a political Zombie by now. He can do whatever he wants now right?

btilly 13y ago

Before getting access to classified information, they also swore an oath to not reveal it. Even if they can't be sued (which I do not know is true), they'd still be breaking their sworn word.