3 ms·

I am not sure what loss of "critical thinking" you are referring to. I don't think anyone is losing mental marbles, nor do are stories getting that bad. (Adm

by jbm 17y ago

I am not sure what loss of "critical thinking" you are referring to. I don't think anyone is losing mental marbles, nor do are stories getting that bad. (Admittedly, I couldn't stand the stories a month or two, but things seem to be on the upswing again). The discussion is usually interesting for any highly-moderated story on the front page. Ironically, questioning the mental prowess of other posters without mentioning a rationale for it contributes to a decline in quality of the conversation taking place. Maybe you could be more specific?

ahoyhere 17y ago
There's no loss of "mental marbles," that implies insanity rather than a lack of a faculty most people don't have to begin with. Are individual people losing it? Probably not. But I point out logical inconsistencies where I see them, and when people miss the big picture (which is often) of a given problem or discussion. Take the once-a-week discussion of pro-formal ed/anti-formal ed. It's always the same, the same ego-stroking and ego-defense, and most people are clearly working purely off their own biases, without even the benefit of having read any of the professional criticism / praise of the systems in place in the US, or learning theory, or theory of achievement, so on & so forth. They talk to talk, since they are convinced of their own genius. This is "expressing yourself" at its worst. Commentors are unfamiliar with basic rhetorical principles - calling certain things 'ad hominem' when they are genuinely relevant observations that have to do with the person, claiming that facts are pure and all that must be considered, falling prey to obvious bids for trolldom (time_management), etc., etc. All of the above has, in my opinion, increased a lot in the past year & even last 6 mos. (Not to mention the shifting of content towards more & more regurgitated 'productivity porn,' tired old pablum that you could get from any 20-year-old Anthony Robbins tape or 60-year-old Peale book, or even older classical advice manuals.) The alternative is that I'm suddenly a much deeper thinker than I was, and I don't think that's the case.
- jbm 17y ago
  Please accept my apologies - almost 2 years in Japan has put an end to my capacity for writing proper English. I did intend to say that people seemed to be as intelligent (or not) as they were when I had started reading this site. The education piece, as you mention, is (at most) a once-a-week ego-stroking event. It has become a pattern by now, with people more interested in defending themselves than "reaching the truth". I'm going to lose Karma for this, but how does that differ from the long tradition of promoting a programming language as the "be all end all" when the rationalist position is that each language has benefits and disadvantages? I submit that there hasn't been much of a change. As for the lack of rhetorical skills, I cannot argue either way - I don't recall having read an article where someone accused someone else of making an ad-hominem attack (my own choice of stories differs from your own I suppose) I'll agree with you on the "productivity porn" though. Much like some local tech events (like Tokyo 2.0), there does seem to be an excess of stories where people talk about "getting things done", without necessarily the evidence of anything actually being done. Thanks for clarifying, and I hope you weren't offended at my original message.
  - ahoyhere 17y ago
    Oh, no, I'm not offended. I was just refuting what you said because I disagree. No worries at all. You're right, the language stuff is almost exactly the same thing, except (in theory) HN people know a lot about programming languages. The education stuff, and the economic stuff, and (god forbid) the design stuff, people know practically nothing about, and rarely bother to educate themselves. People just want a forum for venting their personal opinions and promulgating their pre-existing worldviews. (In my opinion, true hackers -- the technical type, and every other type -- have fluid worldviews and don't invest much in defending their own egos in the face of conflict.) HN does not promote moderation or rationality (e.g. "everyone should use the tools that make them most effective and not argue about it"). No popularity contest can. It devolves into a place where people come to be reassured that they are, in fact, great, and the things that they are weak at are unimportant, and the things they are strong at are the most important things in the world. Metacognition disappears. Cycle: Founders: This place sucks! Let's start a new place with only the best. First Wave: This place is so much better! I can breathe free with like minds! Yay! Let's tell people about it. Second Wave: Dude this is like better than that other place. My Ruby linkbait isn't so lost in the news. Third Wave: RON PAUL!! All communities like this decay this way without very, very careful tending... and to do that careful tending, one must have an excellent understanding of social dynamics, human nature, and social skills in general. Thus all developer-centric news sites are doomed! ;)

by jbm 17y ago

ahoyhere 17y ago

There's no loss of "mental marbles," that implies insanity rather than a lack of a faculty most people don't have to begin with. Are individual people losing it? Probably not. But I point out logical inconsistencies where I see them, and when people miss the big picture (which is often) of a given problem or discussion. Take the once-a-week discussion of pro-formal ed/anti-formal ed. It's always the same, the same ego-stroking and ego-defense, and most people are clearly working purely off their own biases, without even the benefit of having read any of the professional criticism / praise of the systems in place in the US, or learning theory, or theory of achievement, so on & so forth. They talk to talk, since they are convinced of their own genius. This is "expressing yourself" at its worst. Commentors are unfamiliar with basic rhetorical principles - calling certain things 'ad hominem' when they are genuinely relevant observations that have to do with the person, claiming that facts are pure and all that must be considered, falling prey to obvious bids for trolldom (time_management), etc., etc. All of the above has, in my opinion, increased a lot in the past year & even last 6 mos. (Not to mention the shifting of content towards more & more regurgitated 'productivity porn,' tired old pablum that you could get from any 20-year-old Anthony Robbins tape or 60-year-old Peale book, or even older classical advice manuals.) The alternative is that I'm suddenly a much deeper thinker than I was, and I don't think that's the case.

jbm 17y ago
Please accept my apologies - almost 2 years in Japan has put an end to my capacity for writing proper English. I did intend to say that people seemed to be as intelligent (or not) as they were when I had started reading this site. The education piece, as you mention, is (at most) a once-a-week ego-stroking event. It has become a pattern by now, with people more interested in defending themselves than "reaching the truth". I'm going to lose Karma for this, but how does that differ from the long tradition of promoting a programming language as the "be all end all" when the rationalist position is that each language has benefits and disadvantages? I submit that there hasn't been much of a change. As for the lack of rhetorical skills, I cannot argue either way - I don't recall having read an article where someone accused someone else of making an ad-hominem attack (my own choice of stories differs from your own I suppose) I'll agree with you on the "productivity porn" though. Much like some local tech events (like Tokyo 2.0), there does seem to be an excess of stories where people talk about "getting things done", without necessarily the evidence of anything actually being done. Thanks for clarifying, and I hope you weren't offended at my original message.
- ahoyhere 17y ago
  Oh, no, I'm not offended. I was just refuting what you said because I disagree. No worries at all. You're right, the language stuff is almost exactly the same thing, except (in theory) HN people know a lot about programming languages. The education stuff, and the economic stuff, and (god forbid) the design stuff, people know practically nothing about, and rarely bother to educate themselves. People just want a forum for venting their personal opinions and promulgating their pre-existing worldviews. (In my opinion, true hackers -- the technical type, and every other type -- have fluid worldviews and don't invest much in defending their own egos in the face of conflict.) HN does not promote moderation or rationality (e.g. "everyone should use the tools that make them most effective and not argue about it"). No popularity contest can. It devolves into a place where people come to be reassured that they are, in fact, great, and the things that they are weak at are unimportant, and the things they are strong at are the most important things in the world. Metacognition disappears. Cycle: Founders: This place sucks! Let's start a new place with only the best. First Wave: This place is so much better! I can breathe free with like minds! Yay! Let's tell people about it. Second Wave: Dude this is like better than that other place. My Ruby linkbait isn't so lost in the news. Third Wave: RON PAUL!! All communities like this decay this way without very, very careful tending... and to do that careful tending, one must have an excellent understanding of social dynamics, human nature, and social skills in general. Thus all developer-centric news sites are doomed! ;)