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"I initially agreed with these methods and chose to volunteer to help defend my country. It was not until I was in Iraq and reading secret military reports on a

by spodek 13y ago

"I initially agreed with these methods and chose to volunteer to help defend my country. It was not until I was in Iraq and reading secret military reports on a daily basis that I started to question the morality of what we were doing. It was at this time I realized in our efforts to meet this risk posed to us by the enemy, we have forgotten our humanity." One of my best friends spoke similarly when I met him after his tour as a Marine in the first Gulf War in 1991. Based on what he saw, after long introspection, he applied for conscientious objector status. He felt he was sent around the world not to protect his country's freedom or safety, but government and corporate interests. He felt his conscience could only oppose all wars he could possibly imagine his country fighting. He could only learn that by going, not from what his government told him before going. The situation today seems more objectionable than then. I feel like the more we learn about the government's actions, the yet more objectionable they seem. I shudder when I connect the data point then to today's and extrapolate a few years out. But I still take inspiration from people who honor the Constitution over what seems opposing policy. (Edit: since people are asking about what happened to my friend, instead of evaluating his conscientious objector intent, they gave him bureaucratic run-around for years until it was easier for him to get his Honorable Discharge on schedule.)

JoshTriplett 13y ago
> Based on what he saw, after long introspection, he applied for conscientious objector status. Successfully? I'd think it would be much harder to do so after initially agreeing to fight.
- jacquesm 13y ago
  It should be possible to change ones mind about something. Lots of conscientious objectors do so from a religious viewpoint, but having a conscience is not exclusively reserved for people of some religion, you are welcome to have one all by your lonesome. And that conscience can start to ask annoying questions about your actions and affiliations which can cause you to change your mind about something. What is more worrisome to me is that it would be something that could be refused. If someone states they have no will to obey the government entity they have applied for then they should be allowed to leave. The alternative feels too much like ownership to me.
  - JoshTriplett 13y ago
    Oh, I agree with you completely. That doesn't necessarily mean it works that way, though. Conscientious objector status requires proof, and as I understand it the burden of proof is on the objector. I could easily imagine that that burden of proof would be higher if the objection occurred after initial acceptance, especially voluntary acceptance.
    - einhverfr 13y ago
      My father was eventually granted CO status after spending a year in the stockade for failure (well, refusal) to report for active duty. I don't know how things there have changed since Vietnam though.
      - anigbrowl 13y ago
        I imagine it's quite a bit more difficult to argue int he absence of a draft.
harshreality 13y ago
He felt he was sent around the world not to protect his country's freedom or safety, but government and corporate interests. There's nothing new about that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket (by Gen. Smedley Butler) http://www.amazon.com/Overthrow-Americas-Century-Regime-Change/dp/0805082409 http://www.amazon.com/Overthrow-Americas-Century-Regime-Chan... (by Stephen Kinzer)
- joering2 13y ago
  Yes, there is. Unlike tens of millions that served their tour silently and never questioned requests they were given, regardless if it meant to protect a hospital building, or machine-gun group of civilians from aboard hovering helicopter, this guy, knowingly he could pay the ultimate penalty of life in jail, decided to go against selfish interests of his superiors and altogether with his heart's gut. And for taking this stand, he's go my lifetime's respect. EDIT: since this is getting upvoted heavily, I want to add something: Imagine that every single soldier is a copy of Bradley Manning. Than when a supervisor breaks the law, they blow the whistle. As a result, you can imagine two things happening: either army would stop existing (doubt that) OR supervisors, colonels and all those little monsters in power would STOPPED breaking the law once for all. Its as simple as that. Okay, you can say: get down to Earth, this is War, War is always dirty. Sure. So my response is: the last War we been at was World War 2. We have no business WHATSOEVER to be (or ever been) in Iraq, Afganistan, or tens of other places where US soldiers are currently deployed. None! All those "wars" we fighting are NOT in the name of peace or freedom of Americans, living tens of thousands of miles away, here on US soil. The War we are in right now are in most part because there is easy tax-payers money to be grabbed and the Industrial Military Complex do not want to rest on not spending trillions of dollars. That's it! EDIT 2: next time you say: "oh there is a chance Manning did endanger lives of US citizens". Maybe yes maybe no. Maybe if grandma would have mustache she would've been grandpa. But do yourself a favor: go and watch Youtube helicopter massacre that Manning uncovered. I assure you people you watch ARE beyond any shade of doubt DEAD.
  - Jormundir 13y ago
    I like your comments and think they are of a serious nature, but oh man! > Maybe yes maybe no. Maybe if grandma would have mustache she would've been grandpa. Is the funniest comment I've seen all year!
subdane 13y ago
"I shudder when I connect the data point then to today's and extrapolate a few years out." Well put.
anigbrowl 13y ago
Manning joined the military in late 2007 or early 2008...long after incidents like the prison abuse at Abu Ghraib, and even the admission by President Bush himself that the decision to go to war had been based on faulty intelligence.I cannot take Manning's claims that he had no clue that there was anything untoward going on until he arrived in Iraq and began reading secret military reports. Now, I wouldn't have expected him to have an adult's awareness of all the political issues, but did this young man never see the front page of a newspaper or watch a television news broadcast during the previous four years? You would have to have been living under a rock to be unaware that the US invasion of Iraq had been the subject of controversy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Iraq_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Iraq_War
- pkinsky 13y ago
  Every empire has a propaganda apparatus. I'm sure he thought he was doing the right thing, more or less, when he joined.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    Don't give me that, even if you never looked past the front page of a newspaper you would have to have known that Iraq was a giant clusterfuck.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      How many teenagers read newspapers? I mean, I did, but I also didn't join the Army...
    - aengvs 13y ago
      It's not hard to believe that some portion (if not the majority) of people joining the military genuinely think they are doing something good.
      - gcb0 13y ago
        read the starship troopers. it's a little entertaining little short story. But it hit like a punch to face when you finally grasp how the mind of a kid gets turned around in the army. In the end, even you are being proud of his dumb and blind service to the war effort.
fleitz 13y ago
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together. - Dwight Eisenhower http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  * 1961. We've had a half-century to get used to it then so I suggest take responsibility for that instead of pretending it's something that fell out of the sky and landed on us.
  - samstave 13y ago
    After seeing the way you post in all these threads, you're the worst kind of apologist.
    - foobarbazqux 13y ago
      That was an unnecessary and uncivil remark about anigbrowl. I'm saying this despite the fact that I probably agree with you about Manning. I was once much like the descriptions of him, possessed by a combination of high intelligence, arrogance, emotional confusion, and moral naivete, and frequently in denial about very obvious realities before me. In as much as I can forgive myself for being a bit of a messed up kid, I can forgive Manning.
nodata 13y ago
Why do you "apply" for conscientious objector status? Surely that means they can decide whether or not to accept it.
agumonkey 13y ago
How much of the military enrollment is based on taking advantage of the naivety and emotional charge of young adults that will then be (ab)used for hidden interests ? It does not seem very far from terrorist organizations processes ..
NN88 13y ago
> Based on what he saw, after long introspection, he applied for conscientious objector status. He felt he was sent around the world not to protect his country's freedom or safety, but government and corporate interests. Isn't that the basis of ALL war?
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > Isn't that the basis of ALL war? Its the basis for at least one side in pretty much all war, but every side in every war (at least since treating war as a private rather than public affair and paying troops by overtly giving them either land grants in conquered territory or the right to loot conquered territory fell out of vogue) presents that as the other side, not their own side.

by spodek 13y ago

JoshTriplett 13y ago

> Based on what he saw, after long introspection, he applied for conscientious objector status. Successfully? I'd think it would be much harder to do so after initially agreeing to fight.

jacquesm 13y ago
It should be possible to change ones mind about something. Lots of conscientious objectors do so from a religious viewpoint, but having a conscience is not exclusively reserved for people of some religion, you are welcome to have one all by your lonesome. And that conscience can start to ask annoying questions about your actions and affiliations which can cause you to change your mind about something. What is more worrisome to me is that it would be something that could be refused. If someone states they have no will to obey the government entity they have applied for then they should be allowed to leave. The alternative feels too much like ownership to me.
- JoshTriplett 13y ago
  Oh, I agree with you completely. That doesn't necessarily mean it works that way, though. Conscientious objector status requires proof, and as I understand it the burden of proof is on the objector. I could easily imagine that that burden of proof would be higher if the objection occurred after initial acceptance, especially voluntary acceptance.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    My father was eventually granted CO status after spending a year in the stockade for failure (well, refusal) to report for active duty. I don't know how things there have changed since Vietnam though.
    - anigbrowl 13y ago
      I imagine it's quite a bit more difficult to argue int he absence of a draft.

harshreality 13y ago

He felt he was sent around the world not to protect his country's freedom or safety, but government and corporate interests. There's nothing new about that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket (by Gen. Smedley Butler) http://www.amazon.com/Overthrow-Americas-Century-Regime-Change/dp/0805082409 http://www.amazon.com/Overthrow-Americas-Century-Regime-Chan... (by Stephen Kinzer)

joering2 13y ago
Yes, there is. Unlike tens of millions that served their tour silently and never questioned requests they were given, regardless if it meant to protect a hospital building, or machine-gun group of civilians from aboard hovering helicopter, this guy, knowingly he could pay the ultimate penalty of life in jail, decided to go against selfish interests of his superiors and altogether with his heart's gut. And for taking this stand, he's go my lifetime's respect. EDIT: since this is getting upvoted heavily, I want to add something: Imagine that every single soldier is a copy of Bradley Manning. Than when a supervisor breaks the law, they blow the whistle. As a result, you can imagine two things happening: either army would stop existing (doubt that) OR supervisors, colonels and all those little monsters in power would STOPPED breaking the law once for all. Its as simple as that. Okay, you can say: get down to Earth, this is War, War is always dirty. Sure. So my response is: the last War we been at was World War 2. We have no business WHATSOEVER to be (or ever been) in Iraq, Afganistan, or tens of other places where US soldiers are currently deployed. None! All those "wars" we fighting are NOT in the name of peace or freedom of Americans, living tens of thousands of miles away, here on US soil. The War we are in right now are in most part because there is easy tax-payers money to be grabbed and the Industrial Military Complex do not want to rest on not spending trillions of dollars. That's it! EDIT 2: next time you say: "oh there is a chance Manning did endanger lives of US citizens". Maybe yes maybe no. Maybe if grandma would have mustache she would've been grandpa. But do yourself a favor: go and watch Youtube helicopter massacre that Manning uncovered. I assure you people you watch ARE beyond any shade of doubt DEAD.
- Jormundir 13y ago
  I like your comments and think they are of a serious nature, but oh man! > Maybe yes maybe no. Maybe if grandma would have mustache she would've been grandpa. Is the funniest comment I've seen all year!

subdane 13y ago

"I shudder when I connect the data point then to today's and extrapolate a few years out." Well put.

anigbrowl 13y ago

Manning joined the military in late 2007 or early 2008...long after incidents like the prison abuse at Abu Ghraib, and even the admission by President Bush himself that the decision to go to war had been based on faulty intelligence.I cannot take Manning's claims that he had no clue that there was anything untoward going on until he arrived in Iraq and began reading secret military reports. Now, I wouldn't have expected him to have an adult's awareness of all the political issues, but did this young man never see the front page of a newspaper or watch a television news broadcast during the previous four years? You would have to have been living under a rock to be unaware that the US invasion of Iraq had been the subject of controversy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Iraq_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Iraq_War

pkinsky 13y ago
Every empire has a propaganda apparatus. I'm sure he thought he was doing the right thing, more or less, when he joined.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  Don't give me that, even if you never looked past the front page of a newspaper you would have to have known that Iraq was a giant clusterfuck.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    How many teenagers read newspapers? I mean, I did, but I also didn't join the Army...
  - aengvs 13y ago
    It's not hard to believe that some portion (if not the majority) of people joining the military genuinely think they are doing something good.
    - gcb0 13y ago
      read the starship troopers. it's a little entertaining little short story. But it hit like a punch to face when you finally grasp how the mind of a kid gets turned around in the army. In the end, even you are being proud of his dumb and blind service to the war effort.

fleitz 13y ago

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together. - Dwight Eisenhower http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html

anigbrowl 13y ago
* 1961. We've had a half-century to get used to it then so I suggest take responsibility for that instead of pretending it's something that fell out of the sky and landed on us.
- samstave 13y ago
  After seeing the way you post in all these threads, you're the worst kind of apologist.
  - foobarbazqux 13y ago
    That was an unnecessary and uncivil remark about anigbrowl. I'm saying this despite the fact that I probably agree with you about Manning. I was once much like the descriptions of him, possessed by a combination of high intelligence, arrogance, emotional confusion, and moral naivete, and frequently in denial about very obvious realities before me. In as much as I can forgive myself for being a bit of a messed up kid, I can forgive Manning.

nodata 13y ago

Why do you "apply" for conscientious objector status? Surely that means they can decide whether or not to accept it.

agumonkey 13y ago

How much of the military enrollment is based on taking advantage of the naivety and emotional charge of young adults that will then be (ab)used for hidden interests ? It does not seem very far from terrorist organizations processes ..

NN88 13y ago

> Based on what he saw, after long introspection, he applied for conscientious objector status. He felt he was sent around the world not to protect his country's freedom or safety, but government and corporate interests. Isn't that the basis of ALL war?

dragonwriter 13y ago
> Isn't that the basis of ALL war? Its the basis for at least one side in pretty much all war, but every side in every war (at least since treating war as a private rather than public affair and paying troops by overtly giving them either land grants in conquered territory or the right to loot conquered territory fell out of vogue) presents that as the other side, not their own side.