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I find this kind of thing absolutely nauseating, divisive, and thoroughly unhelpful. I'm sure it makes you feel good, Mr Ultra Feminist, but you're not advanci

I find this kind of thing absolutely nauseating, divisive, and thoroughly unhelpful. I'm sure it makes you feel good, Mr Ultra Feminist, but you're not advancing "your" cause whatsoever by trying to guilt people - and with such weak, whiny examples, too. You just make women look weak and whiny. (And, by extension, yourself, since you're not even a woman.) That's unproductive and leads to - guess what! - women being not taken seriously, and being avoided because well-meaning men will assume everything they say will cause offense, and women not getting hired or picked because they make everyone else uncomfortable. Isn't that ironic? You also treat all women the same when you presume to speak for them. That's just more plain old sexism dressed up in a suit of righteousness. I hate people grouping me with all other breast-and-vagina people, and assuming I like them, and agree with them, and share their agenda... and support them speaking on my behalf, as if we are all alike. If you want to create change, you have to stop whining, stop laying blame, stop pointing fingers and saying "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE WHEN THEY CALL OBJECTS 'GUYS'!!!!" and do useful, productive things. This is not it. For what it's worth, men in IT are more likeable than women, because when men fail, they don't blame it on other people's oppression of them due to their sexual equipment.

Tichy 17y ago
My favorite was from another article where they claimed that all programming languages were tailored towards male ways of thinking. If that would be the case, why not set out to create a programing language tailored towards the female way of thinking. I for one would be really curious to see that.
- j_baker 17y ago
  Just out of curiosity, would you happen to have a link to the article? I'm genuinely curious as to what makes a programming language "male oriented".
  - Tichy 17y ago
    I tried to yahoo it, but did not find it. It came up during the recent "male vs female programmers" surge.
- ahoyhere 17y ago
  See, the funny thing here is I agree, up to a point and with a lot of footnotes. The "extreme male brain" is overrepresented in programming, and programming tools are made by the people in programming. But those "male-oriented" languages would be better describe as "extreme male brain-oriented" because it's more common in men but not exclusively a male trait. I have met women just like that, too, and there are tests that place you on a gender scale (for lack of a better way to put it), based on your cognitive style. (I test as more male than female in my own cognitive style, for example.) So these "extreme male brain-oriented" languages don't really exclude anyone, but they may not feel comfortable or natural. And I wouldn't say they are unnatural for women, but unnatural for anyone with a more "typical female brain" cognitive style -- including some women of course, and lots of men who happen to have different cognitive styles, including designers, linguists, architects, teachers, musicians, etc. I think Ruby is an anti-example of this assertion. So is HyperCard, AppleScript (to some degree), Logo, and Ethan, and there are others. Of course, it's entirely ridiculous to say that the fact that languages are "extreme male brain-oriented" is some kind of oppressive conspiracy. People who have to make their own tools, make them to suit themselves.
knowtheory 17y ago
Amy, i think you're off base here. You (and many others) are making an assertion about the intent of the list. Why do you assume that this is guilt tripping? Are they calling out this behavior to blame someone? Why isn't the assumption simply that they want particular behavior to cease, regardless of what the cause is? So i want one of two things for people accusing this of being a pointless exercise in flagellation. 1) If there are valid issues in the list that should be addressed (and i would assert that there are), how should the information be communicated in a way that doesn't raise hackles (but still gets the point across). 2) If you don't think that the contents of this list should be raise, how does one raise and preserve awareness of the gender disparity in the programming world, and that there are problems that arise because of it (at least with some segment of our community)? Additionally, there are other sardonic lists of things particular programmers hate (that questionably characterize their subject matter). Why is this one causing everyone to get their mad on?
- ahoyhere 17y ago
  Assuming we agree that the list is factual or at least objective (I don't), and that there are valid issues in the list (I don't think so), and we agree that there is a problematic gender disparity that should have "awareness raised" (and I don't agree at all), which do you think is more effective... * laying it out as List Of Privileges People With Penises Have And Don't Realize They Have, and posting it on "news" sites dominated by young men, or... * keeping the list to yourself, and doing something about it? Everything I know about being powerful, and being effective, says "For the love of god, take door #2." Weak people lay out all their cards and say, "Fix it for me" and "Let's have a discussion." Strong people work behind the scenes and fix things so nobody even knew they were broken to begin with. The bonus of the "strong and silent" choice is that it doesn't lead to these stupid kind of tail-chasing, bitchy, whiny, finger-pointy, divisive "discussions." It just creates... change. Also, to say that the tech industry is a community - it is to laugh.

Tichy 17y ago

My favorite was from another article where they claimed that all programming languages were tailored towards male ways of thinking. If that would be the case, why not set out to create a programing language tailored towards the female way of thinking. I for one would be really curious to see that.

j_baker 17y ago
Just out of curiosity, would you happen to have a link to the article? I'm genuinely curious as to what makes a programming language "male oriented".
- Tichy 17y ago
  I tried to yahoo it, but did not find it. It came up during the recent "male vs female programmers" surge.
ahoyhere 17y ago
See, the funny thing here is I agree, up to a point and with a lot of footnotes. The "extreme male brain" is overrepresented in programming, and programming tools are made by the people in programming. But those "male-oriented" languages would be better describe as "extreme male brain-oriented" because it's more common in men but not exclusively a male trait. I have met women just like that, too, and there are tests that place you on a gender scale (for lack of a better way to put it), based on your cognitive style. (I test as more male than female in my own cognitive style, for example.) So these "extreme male brain-oriented" languages don't really exclude anyone, but they may not feel comfortable or natural. And I wouldn't say they are unnatural for women, but unnatural for anyone with a more "typical female brain" cognitive style -- including some women of course, and lots of men who happen to have different cognitive styles, including designers, linguists, architects, teachers, musicians, etc. I think Ruby is an anti-example of this assertion. So is HyperCard, AppleScript (to some degree), Logo, and Ethan, and there are others. Of course, it's entirely ridiculous to say that the fact that languages are "extreme male brain-oriented" is some kind of oppressive conspiracy. People who have to make their own tools, make them to suit themselves.

knowtheory 17y ago

Amy, i think you're off base here. You (and many others) are making an assertion about the intent of the list. Why do you assume that this is guilt tripping? Are they calling out this behavior to blame someone? Why isn't the assumption simply that they want particular behavior to cease, regardless of what the cause is? So i want one of two things for people accusing this of being a pointless exercise in flagellation. 1) If there are valid issues in the list that should be addressed (and i would assert that there are), how should the information be communicated in a way that doesn't raise hackles (but still gets the point across). 2) If you don't think that the contents of this list should be raise, how does one raise and preserve awareness of the gender disparity in the programming world, and that there are problems that arise because of it (at least with some segment of our community)? Additionally, there are other sardonic lists of things particular programmers hate (that questionably characterize their subject matter). Why is this one causing everyone to get their mad on?

ahoyhere 17y ago
Assuming we agree that the list is factual or at least objective (I don't), and that there are valid issues in the list (I don't think so), and we agree that there is a problematic gender disparity that should have "awareness raised" (and I don't agree at all), which do you think is more effective... * laying it out as List Of Privileges People With Penises Have And Don't Realize They Have, and posting it on "news" sites dominated by young men, or... * keeping the list to yourself, and doing something about it? Everything I know about being powerful, and being effective, says "For the love of god, take door #2." Weak people lay out all their cards and say, "Fix it for me" and "Let's have a discussion." Strong people work behind the scenes and fix things so nobody even knew they were broken to begin with. The bonus of the "strong and silent" choice is that it doesn't lead to these stupid kind of tail-chasing, bitchy, whiny, finger-pointy, divisive "discussions." It just creates... change. Also, to say that the tech industry is a community - it is to laugh.