10 ms·

"thing I use to send email" and "thing I use to watch music videos" are not conceptually distinct? Most users would send as emails to others the kinds of thing

by kenko 13y ago

"thing I use to send email" and "thing I use to watch music videos" are not conceptually distinct? Most users would send as emails to others the kinds of things they leave as comments on youtube?

VikingCoder 13y ago
The word "I" showed up in both of those sentences. To most users, unifying all of their data adds a lot of value. Google reads my GMails from major airlines, and shows me when my next flight is when I Google Search for "when is my next flight". The flight also just pops up on Google Now on my Android phone. It also knows where I am, and where the airport is, so it tells me how long it will take to drive there. When I Google search for La Cucaracha on my desktop, when I walk out to my car and look at my phone, it automatically suggests Navigating to La Cucaracha. When I Subscribe to a YouTube video, it automatically shows up in my GMail as a feed. I find value in these things, and I'm sorry you don't.
- v13inc 13y ago
  The funny thing is that all those features work right now, without unifying your Google accounts.
  - VikingCoder 13y ago
    I trust Google to come up with clever integrations in the future. The OP does not. I think it's his loss.
    - v13inc 13y ago
      Even if different properties have different profiles, Google will still have access to each more then enough data to create these clever integrations in the future. I don't even mind if they have a hidden 'aggregate' profile they use for those features. The frustration comes from removing the option of customizing my profile for each service.
      - VikingCoder 13y ago
        Banana72 shared a YouTube video with you...? What the hell? Banana72...? Oh, right, on YouTube VikingCoder is called Banana72. I think you're asking for a feature which would confuse the hell out of most users.
        v13inc 13y ago
        Unfortunately, that's hard to say without doing proper usability testing. I managed to find a decent looking study that somewhat supports my position [1]. Here's an interesting quote from the abstract: "many (40%) were hesitant to consent to the release of their personal profile information; and (6) many (36%) ex- pressed concern with the use of SSO on websites that contain valuable personal information or, conversely, are not trust- worthy. We also found that with an improved affordance and privacy control, more than 60% of study participants would use Web SSO solutions on the websites they trust." [1] https://cups.cs.cmu.edu/soups/2011/proceedings/a4_Sun.pdf https://cups.cs.cmu.edu/soups/2011/proceedings/a4_Sun.pdf This is a very important discussion -- I'd love to see some papers that study the benefits of a single login / profile, rather then the negatives.
        VikingCoder 13y ago
        Many (40%) were hesitant to use Facebook, when it was described to them, citing privacy concerns. And then 98% of them did. How people say they will act, and how they act, are completely different animals.
        v13inc 13y ago
        Hence the need for studies ;)
        makomk 13y ago
        That probably has a lot to do with network effects - even if a lot of people would be hesitant to use Facebook, all their friends are on there rather than a more privacy-preserving alternative. Same reason everyone keeps using eBay even though they continue to get shitter and shitter.
- chmars 13y ago
  1/2 OT: Navigating to La Cucaracha, i.e., literally to The Cockroach? Is there really a place called La Cucaracha? I would have expected Google to show ads for exterminator services or maybe a link to a YouTube video featuring the La Cucaracha song … ;)
  - VikingCoder 13y ago
    I've been to a great Mexican restaurant named La Cucaracha. Great name, huh? I've always wondered how Chi-Chi's stayed in business, BTW.
    - jessedhillon 13y ago
      Because who wants to go to a place called tits? Me, that's who.
      - chmars 13y ago
        Do you really consider cockroaches and tits to be on the same level?!
- bambax 13y ago
  > I find value in these things Well then good for you, and you should be able to merge all your accounts with Google into one; but why should this be almost compulsory? What's more, if there's so much value into this, why does Google have to force its users to do it?
  - mbell 13y ago
    > Well then good for you, and you should be able to merge all your accounts with Google into one; but why should this be almost compulsory? Quite often here on Hacker News we sit around and talk about how removing features or options from an App is often the best thing to do for usability. I think this is true. At the same time every time this comes up with regards to Google or some other large company the response flips around completely. Ultimately I think the readership here is just the 10% of users that want the option, exactly the group we often say that should be ignored for the overall good of the product.
    - chrismonsanto 13y ago
      "I'm annoyed at YouTube for bothering me to use my real name" is not exclusively an HN thing. Most content creators in the video game community who publish on YT do it under an alias, or under an account representing their website/community. For us, YT's failure to separate personal accounts from organization/business accounts (the main complaint in the article) is a constant problem.
    - jimmaswell 13y ago
      I really hate that attitude. I'm tired of seeing features and options constantly disappearing from the applications I use.
    - criley2 13y ago
      It's not that. It's Google becoming more and more mainstream. It's Lowest Common Denominator Google. Every revision, something else is gone. Another menu is missing, another option. After scouring enough Google Support forums, tinkering in enough settings and trying enough workarounds, it's the only solution I can come to. Google isn't the hacker search engine we fell in love with over a decade ago. It's an advertising company looking to monetize on a user's lack of privacy to help connect them with advertisers. Adwords is 99% of their business. We can't just ignore that forever. The lowest common denominator of user is the the type of user is probably most susceptible not controlling their privacy well enough and for Google being able to target them widely. How much does Google really care about us ad-block toting hacker types anyway?
- kenko 13y ago
  "The word "I" showed up in both of those sentences. To most users, unifying all of their data adds a lot of value." So you want your every identity online to be tied together? Your usenet posts to alt.sex.hello-kitty, your responses to ads on Craigslist, your interactions with old friends on facebook, your interactions with professional contacts on linkedin (if you use it), your interactions on some neighborhood blog, your political commentary on some political blog, whatever? After all, if you were describing all of them, you'd use the word "I"!
  - VikingCoder 13y ago
    So, the only reasonable interpretation of my position is to carry it to the ridiculous extreme? Or do you acknowledge that there's clearly a balance of benefit and pain, and Google is merely slightly to the wrong side of where you'd want them to be?
    - kenko 13y ago
      Your justification for tying everything together, not only a single method of signing on but a single pervasive identity, was just that ... it's a single person using the things. That's not a very good justification. And your example of a Good Thing that comes from it, by way of contesting my claim that youtube and gmail (or g+) are conceptually distinct, used something else entirely, involving email and planes. (And actually I would prefer those things not to be done automatically!)
    - bfwork 13y ago
      How is that a ridiculous extreme? People have different persona and personal facets in real life that the prefer to keep separate for various reason. That can be as simple as "Work" and "Home" to political views, lifestyle choices etc. The simplest solution online is to use multiple accounts, Google (and others) desperately want you to use only one and do their best to force it. Yes, this way they can provide/extract "value" by being able to collect every thing about you. The flip side is that they have everything about you all linked, personally I view Google et al or the Government doing it just as creepy.

by kenko 13y ago

"thing I use to send email" and "thing I use to watch music videos" are not conceptually distinct? Most users would send as emails to others the kinds of things they leave as comments on youtube?

VikingCoder 13y ago

The word "I" showed up in both of those sentences. To most users, unifying all of their data adds a lot of value. Google reads my GMails from major airlines, and shows me when my next flight is when I Google Search for "when is my next flight". The flight also just pops up on Google Now on my Android phone. It also knows where I am, and where the airport is, so it tells me how long it will take to drive there. When I Google search for La Cucaracha on my desktop, when I walk out to my car and look at my phone, it automatically suggests Navigating to La Cucaracha. When I Subscribe to a YouTube video, it automatically shows up in my GMail as a feed. I find value in these things, and I'm sorry you don't.

v13inc 13y ago
The funny thing is that all those features work right now, without unifying your Google accounts.
- VikingCoder 13y ago
  I trust Google to come up with clever integrations in the future. The OP does not. I think it's his loss.
  - v13inc 13y ago
    Even if different properties have different profiles, Google will still have access to each more then enough data to create these clever integrations in the future. I don't even mind if they have a hidden 'aggregate' profile they use for those features. The frustration comes from removing the option of customizing my profile for each service.
    - VikingCoder 13y ago
      Banana72 shared a YouTube video with you...? What the hell? Banana72...? Oh, right, on YouTube VikingCoder is called Banana72. I think you're asking for a feature which would confuse the hell out of most users.
      - v13inc 13y ago
        Unfortunately, that's hard to say without doing proper usability testing. I managed to find a decent looking study that somewhat supports my position [1]. Here's an interesting quote from the abstract: "many (40%) were hesitant to consent to the release of their personal profile information; and (6) many (36%) ex- pressed concern with the use of SSO on websites that contain valuable personal information or, conversely, are not trust- worthy. We also found that with an improved affordance and privacy control, more than 60% of study participants would use Web SSO solutions on the websites they trust." [1] https://cups.cs.cmu.edu/soups/2011/proceedings/a4_Sun.pdf https://cups.cs.cmu.edu/soups/2011/proceedings/a4_Sun.pdf This is a very important discussion -- I'd love to see some papers that study the benefits of a single login / profile, rather then the negatives.
        VikingCoder 13y ago
        Many (40%) were hesitant to use Facebook, when it was described to them, citing privacy concerns. And then 98% of them did. How people say they will act, and how they act, are completely different animals.
        v13inc 13y ago
        Hence the need for studies ;)
        makomk 13y ago
        That probably has a lot to do with network effects - even if a lot of people would be hesitant to use Facebook, all their friends are on there rather than a more privacy-preserving alternative. Same reason everyone keeps using eBay even though they continue to get shitter and shitter.
chmars 13y ago
1/2 OT: Navigating to La Cucaracha, i.e., literally to The Cockroach? Is there really a place called La Cucaracha? I would have expected Google to show ads for exterminator services or maybe a link to a YouTube video featuring the La Cucaracha song … ;)
- VikingCoder 13y ago
  I've been to a great Mexican restaurant named La Cucaracha. Great name, huh? I've always wondered how Chi-Chi's stayed in business, BTW.
  - jessedhillon 13y ago
    Because who wants to go to a place called tits? Me, that's who.
    - chmars 13y ago
      Do you really consider cockroaches and tits to be on the same level?!
bambax 13y ago
> I find value in these things Well then good for you, and you should be able to merge all your accounts with Google into one; but why should this be almost compulsory? What's more, if there's so much value into this, why does Google have to force its users to do it?
- mbell 13y ago
  > Well then good for you, and you should be able to merge all your accounts with Google into one; but why should this be almost compulsory? Quite often here on Hacker News we sit around and talk about how removing features or options from an App is often the best thing to do for usability. I think this is true. At the same time every time this comes up with regards to Google or some other large company the response flips around completely. Ultimately I think the readership here is just the 10% of users that want the option, exactly the group we often say that should be ignored for the overall good of the product.
  - chrismonsanto 13y ago
    "I'm annoyed at YouTube for bothering me to use my real name" is not exclusively an HN thing. Most content creators in the video game community who publish on YT do it under an alias, or under an account representing their website/community. For us, YT's failure to separate personal accounts from organization/business accounts (the main complaint in the article) is a constant problem.
  - jimmaswell 13y ago
    I really hate that attitude. I'm tired of seeing features and options constantly disappearing from the applications I use.
  - criley2 13y ago
    It's not that. It's Google becoming more and more mainstream. It's Lowest Common Denominator Google. Every revision, something else is gone. Another menu is missing, another option. After scouring enough Google Support forums, tinkering in enough settings and trying enough workarounds, it's the only solution I can come to. Google isn't the hacker search engine we fell in love with over a decade ago. It's an advertising company looking to monetize on a user's lack of privacy to help connect them with advertisers. Adwords is 99% of their business. We can't just ignore that forever. The lowest common denominator of user is the the type of user is probably most susceptible not controlling their privacy well enough and for Google being able to target them widely. How much does Google really care about us ad-block toting hacker types anyway?
kenko 13y ago
"The word "I" showed up in both of those sentences. To most users, unifying all of their data adds a lot of value." So you want your every identity online to be tied together? Your usenet posts to alt.sex.hello-kitty, your responses to ads on Craigslist, your interactions with old friends on facebook, your interactions with professional contacts on linkedin (if you use it), your interactions on some neighborhood blog, your political commentary on some political blog, whatever? After all, if you were describing all of them, you'd use the word "I"!
- VikingCoder 13y ago
  So, the only reasonable interpretation of my position is to carry it to the ridiculous extreme? Or do you acknowledge that there's clearly a balance of benefit and pain, and Google is merely slightly to the wrong side of where you'd want them to be?
  - kenko 13y ago
    Your justification for tying everything together, not only a single method of signing on but a single pervasive identity, was just that ... it's a single person using the things. That's not a very good justification. And your example of a Good Thing that comes from it, by way of contesting my claim that youtube and gmail (or g+) are conceptually distinct, used something else entirely, involving email and planes. (And actually I would prefer those things not to be done automatically!)
  - bfwork 13y ago
    How is that a ridiculous extreme? People have different persona and personal facets in real life that the prefer to keep separate for various reason. That can be as simple as "Work" and "Home" to political views, lifestyle choices etc. The simplest solution online is to use multiple accounts, Google (and others) desperately want you to use only one and do their best to force it. Yes, this way they can provide/extract "value" by being able to collect every thing about you. The flip side is that they have everything about you all linked, personally I view Google et al or the Government doing it just as creepy.