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Sorry, but a negative reinforcement cycle of tensing up in a medium stress situation is exactly the kind of characteristic that I'm trying to screen out in an i

Sorry, but a negative reinforcement cycle of tensing up in a medium stress situation is exactly the kind of characteristic that I'm trying to screen out in an interview. Stressful situations happen a lot more than never in the real world (and sometimes they even involve talking to people, like customers) -- I don't want to have coworkers who can't handle that.

Fishkins 13y ago
For me, the interview has always been way more stressful than anything I've had to do on the job. I think lots of people feel the same way (partially based on what I've seen performing interviews myself).
- tyree732 13y ago
  I'm sorry to hear about how stressed you get during interviews, but unfortunately the stress you demonstrate during technical interviews is a useful heuristic when determining whether or not a candidate would be a good fit for a company. Is a good signal all of the time? No. Is it a good signal most of the time? Probably.
  - macspoofing 13y ago
    >Is it a good signal most of the time? No.
    - tyree732 13y ago
      Neither of us have statistics on that, so a yes/no battle here is pointless. I and many others find it to be a useful signal when someone demonstrates intense anxiety under pressure, you and many others do not. Agree to disagree.
      - btilly 13y ago
        If your programmers are having to work under pressure then you're doing it wrong. It is the job of the manager to create an environment where people are as effective as they can be, and creating artificial space for developers is part of that. (Read Peopleware for more on this.) If you're only willing to consider people who can somewhat function under artificial pressure, then you're passing up a lot of top-notch candidates for very bad reason.
  - cgag 13y ago
    I really can't imagine what would lead you or anyone else to think that's a good signal. I guess maybe it could possibly be good if you're hiring someone to do cold calls or something.
  - woodchuck64 13y ago
    Probably not a good signal because company interviews tend to slip naturally into the human tradition of group initiation rites, unconsciously testing things like social hierarchy, fitness, dominance, loyalty, in addition to the stuff that really matters like problem solving. Technical jobs today simply don't require the strong social interaction and group selection that hunting for food and fending off wild animals did.
  - barrkel 13y ago
    You're so wrong it's laughable. And that's coming from someone who enjoys interviews, because I'm almost always smarter than the other guy (and it's usually a guy) interviewing me. Every job interview I've had has resulted in an offer.[1] But their unique and outlandish nature sets them so far out of anything experienced in a job situation, except possibly for sales. Trying to give them the meaning you're going for is rather pitiful given you're so earnest! [1] For similar reasons, I generally decline to interview prospects, because I'm afraid I judge too narrowly.
  - ericd 13y ago
    Sorry, you're so completely wrong it's painful, unless one of your company's core competencies needs to be semi-confrontational meetings - if you're a consultancy, for example, or you're a wildly dysfunctional company. Social anxiety correlates pretty well with being in a STEM profession.
- chris_mahan 13y ago
  Same here. I'd rather do a full week of work at work than spend an hour in an interview.
macspoofing 13y ago
>Sorry, but a negative reinforcement cycle of tensing up in a medium stress situation is exactly the kind of characteristic that I'm trying to screen out in an interview. Then you're like the guy who punishes interviewees because they didn't estimate the number of sewer ducts in New York correctly. Interviews can cause anxiety and stress to an extent that a typical employee may never encounter in their work.
mtdewcmu 13y ago
I have trouble with interviews, but I've had a much easier time interacting with clients. With a client, I don't feel like I'm defending myself, I feel like I'm helping somebody solve a problem of mutual interest. It's a totally different mindset. Freezing up in interviews would probably be a red flag for a job where you're doing cold calls or something like that. I wouldn't accept that kind of job, let alone interview.
- coreymaass 13y ago
  Once I started thinking about interviews in terms of 1) do we want to work together (not do they want me to work for them) and 2) how can I help them solve a problem, I found they went a lot better. In my cover letters, I'll often even say, "I think I can help" rather than "I think I'd be a good fit for this position". It makes me feel better about it anyway :-)
clavalle 13y ago
But it is different stress. Stress in a job situation is like building a fortress over many months and getting invaded. You know the layout of the terrain like the back of your hand and you can focus on the problem. Stress in an interview is like being air dropped into an enemy fortress. It is hard to know where to turn and you spend as much energy trying to suss out the layout of your new environment as you do reacting to your adversary.
- scott_s 13y ago
  I wish I could highlight your comment, and tell everyone in the thread to read it.
- michaelwww 13y ago
  Right, you can't assume a friendly environment. You may be interviewed by a friend of another employee who the company is looking to replace, perhaps by you. It's a war zone out there sometimes.
lmartel 13y ago
Interview skill really has nothing to do with job performance (and I'm pretty good at interviews). It's a lot like standardized testing: "this metric is completely irrelevant but at least it's testable!"
Bartweiss 13y ago
I think your estimate of interviews as a "medium stress situation" is somewhat simplified and personal. Interviews push you into completely unfamiliar territory, in which you're simultaneously trying to solve context-free problems, defend your answers, and gauge the personality and preferences of your interviewer (an answer that works for one won't always work for another). A client meeting, code review, or dispute with a manager can be stressful, but you can answer from a position of strength. You know your code, have reasons for your decisions, and have met some standard to get the job. Interviews may be less demanding, but for some people it's a huge problem that there's no solid place to stand.
jasonlotito 13y ago
> Sorry, but a negative reinforcement cycle of tensing up in a medium stress situation is exactly the kind of characteristic that I'm trying to screen out in an interview. Then you are doing it wrong. There are different types of stress. Holding up well under "stress" is a misnomer, as someone can hold up well under one type of stress, and completely fall apart in another situation entirely. What you are testing for is the ability to handle the stress of interviewing. If anything, you are hiring for people who can more easily leave. While it's appropriate to test for situations where stress is a factor, it's equally important to realize that talking to a customer and doing pre-sales and an interview are about as far apart as possible on the stress meter. One hardly equates with the other.
barrkel 13y ago
Frankly, talking to customers isn't nearly as stressful as interviews.
rybosome 13y ago
This is the fundamental point that gets made and debated, again and again. I just don't agree that the stress is the same. Speaking as a person who is very prone to interview nerves, nothing evokes quite the same reaction in me, so it's not a valid predictor. Despite my terrible nerves in interviews, I'm able to handle real-world stress just fine. In fact, the craziest example of this I have is live-coding demands from a client in response to a final deliverable. I had our codebase up in an editor on my laptop, and in response to client complaints, was making changes live and deploying to our UAT environment to prompt them to give the final sign-off. Literally, the difference between "ok, we will call this project complete and pay you for the last 6 months of your work" and "this is unacceptable, we aren't paying for this" was in my hands, over the span of an hour, with the client sitting right across from me. This completely contradicts the argument that a candidate who has difficulty handling interview stress will not have the ability to handle any stress. I can't speak for everyone who gets nervous during interviews, but in my case it's due to the combination of the uncomfortable environment, lack of access to tools I've grown to rely on, and an awareness of how fickle people's opinions are.
RogerL 13y ago
Do not ignore empirical evidence - reality will always crush theory (in the collequial sense). And empirically, we endlessly observe very nervous people at interviews that do not exhibit nervousness in meetings (after getting the job). We know that people behave differently in interviews; I suggest using that behavior to predict behavior in non-interview situations is noisy at best, and probably entirely random.

Fishkins 13y ago

For me, the interview has always been way more stressful than anything I've had to do on the job. I think lots of people feel the same way (partially based on what I've seen performing interviews myself).

tyree732 13y ago
I'm sorry to hear about how stressed you get during interviews, but unfortunately the stress you demonstrate during technical interviews is a useful heuristic when determining whether or not a candidate would be a good fit for a company. Is a good signal all of the time? No. Is it a good signal most of the time? Probably.
- macspoofing 13y ago
  >Is it a good signal most of the time? No.
  - tyree732 13y ago
    Neither of us have statistics on that, so a yes/no battle here is pointless. I and many others find it to be a useful signal when someone demonstrates intense anxiety under pressure, you and many others do not. Agree to disagree.
    - btilly 13y ago
      If your programmers are having to work under pressure then you're doing it wrong. It is the job of the manager to create an environment where people are as effective as they can be, and creating artificial space for developers is part of that. (Read Peopleware for more on this.) If you're only willing to consider people who can somewhat function under artificial pressure, then you're passing up a lot of top-notch candidates for very bad reason.
- cgag 13y ago
  I really can't imagine what would lead you or anyone else to think that's a good signal. I guess maybe it could possibly be good if you're hiring someone to do cold calls or something.
- woodchuck64 13y ago
  Probably not a good signal because company interviews tend to slip naturally into the human tradition of group initiation rites, unconsciously testing things like social hierarchy, fitness, dominance, loyalty, in addition to the stuff that really matters like problem solving. Technical jobs today simply don't require the strong social interaction and group selection that hunting for food and fending off wild animals did.
- barrkel 13y ago
  You're so wrong it's laughable. And that's coming from someone who enjoys interviews, because I'm almost always smarter than the other guy (and it's usually a guy) interviewing me. Every job interview I've had has resulted in an offer.[1] But their unique and outlandish nature sets them so far out of anything experienced in a job situation, except possibly for sales. Trying to give them the meaning you're going for is rather pitiful given you're so earnest! [1] For similar reasons, I generally decline to interview prospects, because I'm afraid I judge too narrowly.
- ericd 13y ago
  Sorry, you're so completely wrong it's painful, unless one of your company's core competencies needs to be semi-confrontational meetings - if you're a consultancy, for example, or you're a wildly dysfunctional company. Social anxiety correlates pretty well with being in a STEM profession.
chris_mahan 13y ago
Same here. I'd rather do a full week of work at work than spend an hour in an interview.

macspoofing 13y ago

>Sorry, but a negative reinforcement cycle of tensing up in a medium stress situation is exactly the kind of characteristic that I'm trying to screen out in an interview. Then you're like the guy who punishes interviewees because they didn't estimate the number of sewer ducts in New York correctly. Interviews can cause anxiety and stress to an extent that a typical employee may never encounter in their work.

mtdewcmu 13y ago

I have trouble with interviews, but I've had a much easier time interacting with clients. With a client, I don't feel like I'm defending myself, I feel like I'm helping somebody solve a problem of mutual interest. It's a totally different mindset. Freezing up in interviews would probably be a red flag for a job where you're doing cold calls or something like that. I wouldn't accept that kind of job, let alone interview.

coreymaass 13y ago
Once I started thinking about interviews in terms of 1) do we want to work together (not do they want me to work for them) and 2) how can I help them solve a problem, I found they went a lot better. In my cover letters, I'll often even say, "I think I can help" rather than "I think I'd be a good fit for this position". It makes me feel better about it anyway :-)

clavalle 13y ago

But it is different stress. Stress in a job situation is like building a fortress over many months and getting invaded. You know the layout of the terrain like the back of your hand and you can focus on the problem. Stress in an interview is like being air dropped into an enemy fortress. It is hard to know where to turn and you spend as much energy trying to suss out the layout of your new environment as you do reacting to your adversary.

scott_s 13y ago
I wish I could highlight your comment, and tell everyone in the thread to read it.
michaelwww 13y ago
Right, you can't assume a friendly environment. You may be interviewed by a friend of another employee who the company is looking to replace, perhaps by you. It's a war zone out there sometimes.

lmartel 13y ago

Interview skill really has nothing to do with job performance (and I'm pretty good at interviews). It's a lot like standardized testing: "this metric is completely irrelevant but at least it's testable!"

Bartweiss 13y ago

I think your estimate of interviews as a "medium stress situation" is somewhat simplified and personal. Interviews push you into completely unfamiliar territory, in which you're simultaneously trying to solve context-free problems, defend your answers, and gauge the personality and preferences of your interviewer (an answer that works for one won't always work for another). A client meeting, code review, or dispute with a manager can be stressful, but you can answer from a position of strength. You know your code, have reasons for your decisions, and have met some standard to get the job. Interviews may be less demanding, but for some people it's a huge problem that there's no solid place to stand.

jasonlotito 13y ago

> Sorry, but a negative reinforcement cycle of tensing up in a medium stress situation is exactly the kind of characteristic that I'm trying to screen out in an interview. Then you are doing it wrong. There are different types of stress. Holding up well under "stress" is a misnomer, as someone can hold up well under one type of stress, and completely fall apart in another situation entirely. What you are testing for is the ability to handle the stress of interviewing. If anything, you are hiring for people who can more easily leave. While it's appropriate to test for situations where stress is a factor, it's equally important to realize that talking to a customer and doing pre-sales and an interview are about as far apart as possible on the stress meter. One hardly equates with the other.

barrkel 13y ago

Frankly, talking to customers isn't nearly as stressful as interviews.

rybosome 13y ago

This is the fundamental point that gets made and debated, again and again. I just don't agree that the stress is the same. Speaking as a person who is very prone to interview nerves, nothing evokes quite the same reaction in me, so it's not a valid predictor. Despite my terrible nerves in interviews, I'm able to handle real-world stress just fine. In fact, the craziest example of this I have is live-coding demands from a client in response to a final deliverable. I had our codebase up in an editor on my laptop, and in response to client complaints, was making changes live and deploying to our UAT environment to prompt them to give the final sign-off. Literally, the difference between "ok, we will call this project complete and pay you for the last 6 months of your work" and "this is unacceptable, we aren't paying for this" was in my hands, over the span of an hour, with the client sitting right across from me. This completely contradicts the argument that a candidate who has difficulty handling interview stress will not have the ability to handle any stress. I can't speak for everyone who gets nervous during interviews, but in my case it's due to the combination of the uncomfortable environment, lack of access to tools I've grown to rely on, and an awareness of how fickle people's opinions are.

RogerL 13y ago

Do not ignore empirical evidence - reality will always crush theory (in the collequial sense). And empirically, we endlessly observe very nervous people at interviews that do not exhibit nervousness in meetings (after getting the job). We know that people behave differently in interviews; I suggest using that behavior to predict behavior in non-interview situations is noisy at best, and probably entirely random.