3 ms·

Ike, I understand your reasoning and admire the stand you've taken, but please don't do this. You're hurting yourself and the rest of us, too. Let me explain...

by edw519 13y ago

Ike, I understand your reasoning and admire the stand you've taken, but please don't do this. You're hurting yourself and the rest of us, too. Let me explain... I may be one of the most contrary programmers here on HN when it comes to this subject. I have never shared code or given references before a job offer and I never will. I believe that reviewing code that's already been written has far too much risk for any benefit; permissions may be required, explanations are often needed (but never given the opportunity), and most of all, taken out of context. I want a prospective employer to do their own work to evaluate me, one on one, without depending on other code or others' opinions. I will do whatever it takes to help them do this, including interviews, meetings, and yes, coding for them. As an interviewer, I have used many tools to get to know the interviewee, but the coding exercise has alway been, by far, the most important. If you can code, great. If you can't, I'll find out. If you struggle, no problem, we'll work through it. But I have to know, otherwise we can't move on. The trial project is a great idea, but for many reasons, it's not an option for many employers. Do whatever it takes to get past the roadblock of not being able to do a tech interview. There are plenty of resources to do that. If you struggle and your interviewer is a jerk, then no problem: you didn't want to work there anyway. If you struggle and your interviewer helps both of you to solve the problem, then you've both learned a lot about each other. (Also, please try to avoid language like "I will not...". Except for murder and ethical issues, this will probably hurt more than it will help.)

vosper 13y ago
I completely agree with this; I understand and have sympathy for Ike's position but like you I cannot proceed if I can't establish that you can code. The technical interview is currently the tool I use for that. Having said that, I think that an at-home project prior to the interview is useful both for pre-screening but also as a sanity check on the conclusions of the technical interview - if someone blitzes the project but flunks the interview that would make think that maybe the issue was the interview (or the interviewer) and not the interviewee. Lastly, I think that if someone is aware that they do not do well at technical interviews then the best way to deal with this is be up-front with the interviewer, and try to bolster your case by having some code (perhaps on Github) for them to review. No-one I know likes an awkward or failed interview - we want people to succeed - and if you're honest with me about the issues I'll take that into account.
Ologn 13y ago
> I have never shared code or given references before a job offer and I never will. Yes, I think our concerns are different than the OP's. A scenario that has played out for me is that I get an e-mail or call from a headhunter. They want to send my resume to a company. The company likes my resume so I get an interview. Right away they want three (or sometimes more) references. Often they say they prefer, or even require, that they be managers. Obviously this means I have to contact my former managers and co-workers. I have to make sure I still have current contact info for them for one thing. I also want to give them a heads-up that someone might be calling them for a reference. Perhaps I'm not asking for a big favor but I'm still asking for a favor. So every time I go on a job interview, I have to ask several people I know for a favor. Some of whom I might not have had much contact with in the subsequent years. Then I have to contact them out of the blue and ask them if they can give me a reference (I usually do keep in contact with people, but don't want every other contact being me asking for a reference or a favor). Like you, I think it's understandable if the company is about to offer me the job and as a last step want to get some references. But I have people telling me they want to talk to my former managers before I've even had an in-person interview. Compared with this, someone grilling me on data structures, or paging, or TCP/IP behavior, or whatever is pretty minor.

by edw519 13y ago

vosper 13y ago

I completely agree with this; I understand and have sympathy for Ike's position but like you I cannot proceed if I can't establish that you can code. The technical interview is currently the tool I use for that. Having said that, I think that an at-home project prior to the interview is useful both for pre-screening but also as a sanity check on the conclusions of the technical interview - if someone blitzes the project but flunks the interview that would make think that maybe the issue was the interview (or the interviewer) and not the interviewee. Lastly, I think that if someone is aware that they do not do well at technical interviews then the best way to deal with this is be up-front with the interviewer, and try to bolster your case by having some code (perhaps on Github) for them to review. No-one I know likes an awkward or failed interview - we want people to succeed - and if you're honest with me about the issues I'll take that into account.

Ologn 13y ago

> I have never shared code or given references before a job offer and I never will. Yes, I think our concerns are different than the OP's. A scenario that has played out for me is that I get an e-mail or call from a headhunter. They want to send my resume to a company. The company likes my resume so I get an interview. Right away they want three (or sometimes more) references. Often they say they prefer, or even require, that they be managers. Obviously this means I have to contact my former managers and co-workers. I have to make sure I still have current contact info for them for one thing. I also want to give them a heads-up that someone might be calling them for a reference. Perhaps I'm not asking for a big favor but I'm still asking for a favor. So every time I go on a job interview, I have to ask several people I know for a favor. Some of whom I might not have had much contact with in the subsequent years. Then I have to contact them out of the blue and ask them if they can give me a reference (I usually do keep in contact with people, but don't want every other contact being me asking for a reference or a favor). Like you, I think it's understandable if the company is about to offer me the job and as a last step want to get some references. But I have people telling me they want to talk to my former managers before I've even had an in-person interview. Compared with this, someone grilling me on data structures, or paging, or TCP/IP behavior, or whatever is pretty minor.