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There has been a long history of people standing against their government at the risk of their lives, because some few principles of morality are higher than go

by gbog 13y ago

There has been a long history of people standing against their government at the risk of their lives, because some few principles of morality are higher than governments. We have seen the case of Thoreau and friends, against slavery. And then De Gaulle and friends, against Hitler. In old China, it was also very common for confucean public servant to criticise their emperor and wait for the supplice. Now we have Bradley Manning, we can pin his photography on the board of the braves. And do not get to me on "what is morality?" or "how do you choose your principles?" These are obvious to those who know them, and useless (or dangerous, even) to the rest.

jpttsn 13y ago
> These are obvious to those who know them, and useless (or dangerous, even) to the rest. That sounds like a dangerous way to think about things.
- oskarth 13y ago
  Quite the opposite. The dangerous people are the ones who think morality is something you can negotiate about. That's a recipe for unethical behavior. Ethical principles != Fundamentalism.
  - jpttsn 13y ago
    If you don't reason about things, how can you know you are right?
    - gbog 13y ago
      That's true for up to some level, but above that you arrive to some ether where rationality is useless or even dangerous. You see a little girl running toward a minefield, you jump and save her, there is no reasoning. For many who believe in God (not my case) it is something you know is right, but has no reasoning behind. But here it's just some moral principles that are above the law, above the country, and sometime even above oneself. That's what Snowden and Manning teach us (or me, at least)
      - jpttsn 13y ago
        (I know this is dragging on) > You see a little girl running toward a minefield, you jump and save her, there is no reasoning. You see a little girl standing on top of a tall building, a crowd gathered below. You grow frustrated, tension rises. You start chanting "Jump! Jump!" and watch the girl throw herself to her death. There's no reasoning. [1] I don't think anecdotes like that prove much. Human nature has us do things without thinking, for better and sometimes for worse. I don't think these moments of impulse necessarily embody any higher principle, or stand "above" rationality. Having moral principles that stand "above" the law is fine: those will let you decide in favour of what's moral instead of what's legal. But that's still reasoning. [1] This is surprisingly common when people jump from buildings.

by gbog 13y ago

jpttsn 13y ago

> These are obvious to those who know them, and useless (or dangerous, even) to the rest. That sounds like a dangerous way to think about things.

oskarth 13y ago
Quite the opposite. The dangerous people are the ones who think morality is something you can negotiate about. That's a recipe for unethical behavior. Ethical principles != Fundamentalism.
- jpttsn 13y ago
  If you don't reason about things, how can you know you are right?
  - gbog 13y ago
    That's true for up to some level, but above that you arrive to some ether where rationality is useless or even dangerous. You see a little girl running toward a minefield, you jump and save her, there is no reasoning. For many who believe in God (not my case) it is something you know is right, but has no reasoning behind. But here it's just some moral principles that are above the law, above the country, and sometime even above oneself. That's what Snowden and Manning teach us (or me, at least)
    - jpttsn 13y ago
      (I know this is dragging on) > You see a little girl running toward a minefield, you jump and save her, there is no reasoning. You see a little girl standing on top of a tall building, a crowd gathered below. You grow frustrated, tension rises. You start chanting "Jump! Jump!" and watch the girl throw herself to her death. There's no reasoning. [1] I don't think anecdotes like that prove much. Human nature has us do things without thinking, for better and sometimes for worse. I don't think these moments of impulse necessarily embody any higher principle, or stand "above" rationality. Having moral principles that stand "above" the law is fine: those will let you decide in favour of what's moral instead of what's legal. But that's still reasoning. [1] This is surprisingly common when people jump from buildings.