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"I had to LOL at the claim you need to live in the Bay Area to learn how to program, or somehow Khan Academy does IP blocking so only bay area folks can watch."

"I had to LOL at the claim you need to live in the Bay Area to learn how to program, or somehow Khan Academy does IP blocking so only bay area folks can watch." I didn't say or imply either of those things, so I apologize if I wasn't clear. Rather, I'm suggesting that such sites have a lot of potential to make a serious impact in areas where people are most in need of skills. I did come across oil field roustabouts in my Googling, and if that's the primary definition of the term as implied in this article, I stand corrected. "selecting a job you don't personally want doesn't make someone less of a person anyway." Again, I'm not sure where you're reading this into what I wrote. In no way whatsoever did I say, or even suggest that. My personal policy is that, if someone's misinterpreting me, it's probably my bad. I probably wasn't clear enough. But honestly, I think you're reading a lot into my post that simply wasn't intended and/or wasn't there.

VLM 13y ago
Come on man, "archaic insult" "getting stuck" "bottom rungs" "not keeping up" "remain relevant" "those in our country being left behind". Yeah, I'm sure you're talking about techies working at internet startups there LOL. You may not like being called out, but it doesn't mean I was misinterpreting or reading into. "I'd love to see someone really tackle the training and education" Basically how can a plant maint / building super move up. Although, why exactly do they need to? One logical upgrade path is trades, like electrician / plumber but that runs into license and union issues, and they mostly do OTJ anyway. I don't have the figures, but some roustabouts get killed OTJ trying to upgrade themselves without actually knowing as much as they think they do, aka I know I'm not an electrician but I'll "help" with that damaged wiring or whatever. An effective way to get killed is to think you're a rigger or think you're an ironworker, but not really know how to do it. This career field given actual training and OTJ supervision is a logical upgrade path for roustabouts. Sticking in the oil field business you pretty much have to trade risk for money and promotion opportunity so you'll easily go into manual labor roughneck work on the drilling crew, but that's primarily OTJ and what non-OTJ exists seems to do pretty well. All the way up to petroleum engineer from a university. Really the only gain you'll get from online would be transfer out of the biz entirely, go into "CSS web developer" or whatever. And you're not doing online from the middle of nowhere on land, or a offshore platform 250 miles from the nearest wifi... maybe satellite link or something you could download? Even if a roughneck decided to become a Scala coder in his spare time, now you've got a Scala coder in the center of north dakota with no job prospects within hundreds of miles... Because of this, I don't think online classes would have any impact at all? Finally if you succeed, and "trap" a guy who likes to work outdoors and walk around eight hours/day and do hardware work into writing source code in a cube for 12 hours a day in the downtown of a city, you might have won by some popular societal standard of human worth, but has the guy who was trapped won? It can be a difficult perspective problem, but there are a lot of people who genuinely like working outdoors, or genuinely like working with their hands. Forcing them not to do that, is not exactly "fixing" them.
- jonnathanson 13y ago
  "Come on man, "archaic insult" "getting stuck" "bottom rungs" "not keeping up" "remain relevant" "those in our country being left behind". Yeah, I'm sure you're talking about techies working at internet startups there LOL." First: "Archaic insult" was in reference to the word itself, which, as I was saying, is something I've only ever heard as such. (Hence, the Monty Burns example). That was not a value statement; that was basically my saying this: "I've only ever heard the word used as X, therefore, I was surprised to hear it used as Y." Second, in reference to "getting stuck," "left behind," etc., those are economic facts, not value judgments. Unemployment and underemployment are serious issues in our country. You seem to think I am looking down on the unemployed or underemployed, for whatever reason, and that is where the misinterpretation seems to begin. My intent is just the opposite, in fact. I am suggesting that we have some interesting technologies capable of providing skills and training to those having a hard time finding steady or reliable work. (FWIW - I am not talking specifically, or even necessarily, about computer skills -- though that seems to be the strawman you're making of my post here). I am not making value judgments about blue collar workers, about oil field roustabouts, or about any of the categories of workers you're talking about. I am specifically talking about the underemployed, which is what I originally thought the word "roustabout" was being used to reference in this case. As mentioned, I stood corrected on "roustabout." Somehow you're reading condescension or insult into what I'm saying, and once again, all I can say is that that was not the intent. I am not sure what more I can say. You're reading something into my posts that simply isn't there. "You may not like being called out, but it doesn't mean I was misinterpreting or reading into." Now you're just being dickish for no particular reason. I've gone to great lengths to explain my intent, and you seem insistent on misreading me. If I'm saying something you find stupid, great, that's life. I'm bound to say things others find wrong, and every now and then, I'm bound to say things others like. I'd like to think most of us here are like that. On the balance, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Evidently you don't. Fine. Nevertheless, I would suggest this: not everything is an argument. Not everything is a matter of "getting called out," or "winning," etc. I am honestly scratching my head at where you're getting all this from what I've been saying. But I'll give up on trying to explain myself further.

VLM 13y ago

Come on man, "archaic insult" "getting stuck" "bottom rungs" "not keeping up" "remain relevant" "those in our country being left behind". Yeah, I'm sure you're talking about techies working at internet startups there LOL. You may not like being called out, but it doesn't mean I was misinterpreting or reading into. "I'd love to see someone really tackle the training and education" Basically how can a plant maint / building super move up. Although, why exactly do they need to? One logical upgrade path is trades, like electrician / plumber but that runs into license and union issues, and they mostly do OTJ anyway. I don't have the figures, but some roustabouts get killed OTJ trying to upgrade themselves without actually knowing as much as they think they do, aka I know I'm not an electrician but I'll "help" with that damaged wiring or whatever. An effective way to get killed is to think you're a rigger or think you're an ironworker, but not really know how to do it. This career field given actual training and OTJ supervision is a logical upgrade path for roustabouts. Sticking in the oil field business you pretty much have to trade risk for money and promotion opportunity so you'll easily go into manual labor roughneck work on the drilling crew, but that's primarily OTJ and what non-OTJ exists seems to do pretty well. All the way up to petroleum engineer from a university. Really the only gain you'll get from online would be transfer out of the biz entirely, go into "CSS web developer" or whatever. And you're not doing online from the middle of nowhere on land, or a offshore platform 250 miles from the nearest wifi... maybe satellite link or something you could download? Even if a roughneck decided to become a Scala coder in his spare time, now you've got a Scala coder in the center of north dakota with no job prospects within hundreds of miles... Because of this, I don't think online classes would have any impact at all? Finally if you succeed, and "trap" a guy who likes to work outdoors and walk around eight hours/day and do hardware work into writing source code in a cube for 12 hours a day in the downtown of a city, you might have won by some popular societal standard of human worth, but has the guy who was trapped won? It can be a difficult perspective problem, but there are a lot of people who genuinely like working outdoors, or genuinely like working with their hands. Forcing them not to do that, is not exactly "fixing" them.

jonnathanson 13y ago
"Come on man, "archaic insult" "getting stuck" "bottom rungs" "not keeping up" "remain relevant" "those in our country being left behind". Yeah, I'm sure you're talking about techies working at internet startups there LOL." First: "Archaic insult" was in reference to the word itself, which, as I was saying, is something I've only ever heard as such. (Hence, the Monty Burns example). That was not a value statement; that was basically my saying this: "I've only ever heard the word used as X, therefore, I was surprised to hear it used as Y." Second, in reference to "getting stuck," "left behind," etc., those are economic facts, not value judgments. Unemployment and underemployment are serious issues in our country. You seem to think I am looking down on the unemployed or underemployed, for whatever reason, and that is where the misinterpretation seems to begin. My intent is just the opposite, in fact. I am suggesting that we have some interesting technologies capable of providing skills and training to those having a hard time finding steady or reliable work. (FWIW - I am not talking specifically, or even necessarily, about computer skills -- though that seems to be the strawman you're making of my post here). I am not making value judgments about blue collar workers, about oil field roustabouts, or about any of the categories of workers you're talking about. I am specifically talking about the underemployed, which is what I originally thought the word "roustabout" was being used to reference in this case. As mentioned, I stood corrected on "roustabout." Somehow you're reading condescension or insult into what I'm saying, and once again, all I can say is that that was not the intent. I am not sure what more I can say. You're reading something into my posts that simply isn't there. "You may not like being called out, but it doesn't mean I was misinterpreting or reading into." Now you're just being dickish for no particular reason. I've gone to great lengths to explain my intent, and you seem insistent on misreading me. If I'm saying something you find stupid, great, that's life. I'm bound to say things others find wrong, and every now and then, I'm bound to say things others like. I'd like to think most of us here are like that. On the balance, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Evidently you don't. Fine. Nevertheless, I would suggest this: not everything is an argument. Not everything is a matter of "getting called out," or "winning," etc. I am honestly scratching my head at where you're getting all this from what I've been saying. But I'll give up on trying to explain myself further.