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Except the US and friends aren't really "doing it" in the same sense that China, Russia, etc are. Those countries develop powerful surveillance capabilities an

Except the US and friends aren't really "doing it" in the same sense that China, Russia, etc are. Those countries develop powerful surveillance capabilities and use them to target political dissent, among other anti-democratic things. Nothing that's been reported about the US comes even close to that sort of usage.

JackpotDen 13y ago
>use them to target political dissent locking up a dissenter's partner doesn't count, right?
king_jester 13y ago
While not specific to NSA programs, the US gov't at the city, state, and federal levels have targeted political organizations, including infiltrating such organizations and tracking the movements of members in such groups. For examples see the information about spying on leftist groups for the 2004 Republican National Convention or how the NYPD targeted and helped dismantle occupy wall street last year.
drzaiusapelord 13y ago
If FISA makes it illegal to discuss who is getting threatened via secret court orders, how would you remotely know if there are or aren't any chilling affects? This is an important part of this argument. When we make it illegal to discuss the crime, the warrant, and have secret court proceedings, you can't just sit there on your high horse and tell us there is no abuse. You are not allowed to know of any abuse.
wil421 13y ago
>Nothing that's been reported about the US comes even close to that sort of usage. Nothing that's been reported. Or Hasn't happened yet....
GVIrish 13y ago
The US and friends may not be openly targeting and censoring political dissent yet, but clearly the first step is developing the capability. If they develop the capability in an environment without any meaningful oversight or accountability, true abuse is one simple step away. Hell, they may already be using it for political purposes. How would any of us now barring a whistleblower exposing it? That is why this situation is so dangerous.

JackpotDen 13y ago

>use them to target political dissent locking up a dissenter's partner doesn't count, right?

king_jester 13y ago

While not specific to NSA programs, the US gov't at the city, state, and federal levels have targeted political organizations, including infiltrating such organizations and tracking the movements of members in such groups. For examples see the information about spying on leftist groups for the 2004 Republican National Convention or how the NYPD targeted and helped dismantle occupy wall street last year.

drzaiusapelord 13y ago

If FISA makes it illegal to discuss who is getting threatened via secret court orders, how would you remotely know if there are or aren't any chilling affects? This is an important part of this argument. When we make it illegal to discuss the crime, the warrant, and have secret court proceedings, you can't just sit there on your high horse and tell us there is no abuse. You are not allowed to know of any abuse.

wil421 13y ago

>Nothing that's been reported about the US comes even close to that sort of usage. Nothing that's been reported. Or Hasn't happened yet....

GVIrish 13y ago

The US and friends may not be openly targeting and censoring political dissent yet, but clearly the first step is developing the capability. If they develop the capability in an environment without any meaningful oversight or accountability, true abuse is one simple step away. Hell, they may already be using it for political purposes. How would any of us now barring a whistleblower exposing it? That is why this situation is so dangerous.